View Poll Results: You worried?

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  • Yes

    49 49.00%
  • No

    45 45.00%
  • I'm buying my marshmallows

    6 6.00%
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Thread: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

  1. #221
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Well...he's got his primary access to the Mediterranean Sea there. And big honking naval and military bases there- which may be likely to fall into less- friendly government control.

    But your hysterics are noted.
    Doesn't quite get him to the Med though does it. The bases in Crimea were already secure there was no threat of them falling into less friendly hands, so that wasn't an issue. If you think I am being hysterical so be it.
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  2. #222
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by SBu View Post
    What...exactly....are you talking about?
    Your post seemed to suggest that Russian gangs are not Russian Government sponsored.
    Worth noting, Democrats: President Trump will have a Pen and a Phone. #Precedent.

  3. #223
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Your post seemed to suggest that Russian gangs are not Russian Government sponsored.
    I should have included an 'or both' option to clarify.

  4. #224
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Hi Dezaad,

    A slippery slope is a logical fallacy where a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any rational argument or demonstrable mechanism for the inevitability of the event in question.

    I don't think I made an assertion that the downfall of Ukraine would inevitably lead to the recapture of East Germany, for instance. Just to make clear, I was asking a question... if they can take Ukraine, what's to stop them from taking East Gemany?
    If your question was rhetorical, then there it is an assertion that there is no difference, and thus is a slippery slope argument. Given the tone of the post in which it occurred, I think you meant it rhetorically. But, ok.

    That's one to think about, and I'd like to hear your thoughts.
    My thoughts would be the same if I was responding to a rhetorical question as to a serious one: The situations are very, very different. Any grab of East Germany would be met by a huge war, probably a war seeking the unconditional surrender of Russia. This would be the goal of the war that I would support.

    You are correct that the situations in Germany and Ukraine differ, however what you maybe haven't considered yet is how Russia itself would differ, hypothetically, were it to succeed unequivocally in Ukraine by taking control of that country. Surely they would be just a little bit bolder than before, right?
    Perhaps, but it isn't worth our blood to seek to prevent that greater boldness.

    On the same train of thought, how would the perception of the United States differ, in that hypothetical scenario? Surely the world would look at us and, where in the past it was implied that we would come to the aid of our allies in need, to what extent would that faith in the United States diminish? Would the Germans, Poles, Taiwanese, etc feel the need to rethink their international allegiances given this new information?
    The Taiwanese certainly should. The Germans and Poles should not, and I don't think they will. The difference is agreements in place. The fact of the matter is that even though we have military might, this is a defacto multipolar world. Taiwan should probably face the fact that eventually, they will be back with China.

    If I'm Taiwan, or Poland, or Japan, and the United States sits on its hands while Russia takes Ukraine, I'm going to think long and hard about my allegiance with the United States, and possibly consider allying with the Russians or Chinese instead to save my country from future invasion.

    Something to consider.
    Again, if I am Taiwan, I agree with you. But the fact is that China's claim has some legitimacy, and we don't have a military agreement. Exact same thing in Ukraine. Japan can count on us, and they know it. However, we should encourage them to change their Constitution and take a not so pacifist stance. Asia is changing, and Japan needs to be part of the balance of powers.

    Bottom line: WE don't need to stop EVERY act of aggression. We have agreements with countries with whom we ought to stop acts of aggression. The others cannot count on us, and we have made that clear by not having agreements with them. They cannot count on us because we don't want them to count on us.

    On the other hand, we can (and should) attempt to punish Russia in other ways. Those other ways may or may not be effective, but if Europe isn't going to step up, I seen no reason for us to do so.

    On the third hand, if Europe wants to put together a big army consisting of European people to go an defend Ukraine, I could possibly be persuaded that U.S forces should be involved as a minority of that force.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

  5. #225
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    If the thought of war between USA and Russia doesn't make you **** yourself, I don't know about sociopath.... but maybe your sense of realism is a bit out of whack.

    Russia isn't Iraq or even Vietnam. It isn't even Japan or Germany. It would by far be the most brutal and difficult war in the history of this nation.
    And neither side would win such a foolish exercise. The USSR is dead and Russia needs trade to survive. They will pull out soon enough on the threat of sanctions alone.

  6. #226
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Ukraine has nothing to do with Syria.
    Really? How about people calling for the US to go to war?

  7. #227
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Putting took nothing and those troops can leave as quickly as they came in.
    You sound like GW Bush. Saying "bring it on" is not brave it is stupid. Thankfully we don't have a dunce in the Whitehouse anymore.
    I am not saying "bring it on," Putin is. He, by invading Ukraine, did not allow room for negotiation or diplomacy. He took Crimea by military force.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

  8. #228
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That's nice. Any country can take care of itself. Hooray. Civilization and order are natural, instead of fragile, artificial creations.
    Why the prejudice that Ukrainians cannot take care of their own country? Do you know them? Have you been there or so?
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

  9. #229
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    I was just reading about this.

    The treaty that withdrew all nukes from the Ukraine had a stipulation in it that Ukraine would never be attacked by the signers - the West and Russia. That treaty is broken- or on the verge of it.

    This is concerning because of future treaties that could be devised with nuclear disarmament.
    Exactly. By invading Ukranian Crimea, Putin himself broke the treaty. Standing idle communicates cowardness and non-commitment.

    I think Putin did that in purpose while trying to present us as weak to the rest of the world. This cannot stand. Nor will Ukraine stand. I keep saying this, but they can fight and are well armed!
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

  10. #230
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Ukraine has nothing to do with Syria. Stop trying to thread hijack.
    It may though. Putin cannot both protect Assad the mass murderer and invade Ukraine. Which will give way?

    I hope both!
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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