View Poll Results: You worried?

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  • Yes

    49 49.00%
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Thread: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

  1. #141
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Next "point":



    1That's a pretty big club including basically every leader.


    This one:



    2You're joking, right? PC and diversity is destroying America? Well, that's quite the platform.


    Next:



    3How unusual! Not.

    Irredentism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    And:



    4Most countries are building up their military, in one form or another.

    Finally:


    5Seriously?



    6As we can plainly see, there is NOTHING unusual in any of the above comparisons. Each is commonplace to an extent that any given country will satisfy most, if not all, of them.
    You must feel pretty special for using the term godwining. I suppose no one should draw comparisons because you mock them?

    1. Not every leader has gone through the devastating impact of an empire crumbling. They have. Surely this influences their decision making.
    2. No. Read a bit more carefully, will you. This is what Putin thinks about us. He does not respect us or Europe. It is true that avoiding war and pursuing social agendas are a principle concern of us and Europe. Putin is reading that as weakness, and he is exploiting it.
    3. So you think their actions are justified? Not sure what your beef here is other than to yell for the sake of it.
    4. No. Most countries don't have to deal with building up their military after the fall of an empire and subsequently their military. Russia has gone swiftly from a navy in ruin, and an army selling equipment on the black market to a vast overhaul of their military. Mostly paid for with oil revenue. You are mistaken yet again.
    5. No, not seriously. A little comic relief after a quite serious post. Thought it would lighten the mood. I guess it just served to give you ammunition. My bad.
    6. You haven't proven that there isn't a legitimate comparison here. What you have proven is that you are so desperate to be right, that you're willing to compromise your reason to suit your argument.

  2. #142
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Yes, it worries me. I'm no WW2 History buff, but anyone who looks at this situation can be reminded of the Hitler's cat joke, "I can has Poland?"

    Russia has occupied Crimea. It has ousted the local parliament and installed their own people. Russia has taken Crimea back, and I'm pretty damned sure it intends to keep it. It has violated the Ukrainian autonomy treaty signed between Russia, USA, UK, and Ukraine. It is massing troops on Ukraine's eastern border, next to other Ukrainian provinces that are primarily occupied by ethnic Russian-speakers.

    At this point, two things are absolute: Russia has taken back Crimea, and Putin has publicly declared that he wishes to reestablish the Soviet empire.

    I believe Russia will militarily occupy the Russia-friendly provinces of eastern Ukraine. There isn't a damned thing, short of WW3, anyone can do about it, and Putin knows that. The big question is, will Russia then move into EU-friendly western Ukraine, occupy that by force, reinstate the ousted Russian puppet President who the people just chased out of office, and claim Ukraine as part of Soviet Russia. If Putin does this, and the rest of the world just wrings its hands, then Ukraine will be merely the first of many previous Russian satellite countries who will, over the next few years, be re-included in the reestablishment of Putin's new USSR.

    How can he be stopped short of military confrontation? Short answer: He can't. He is in control, and he knows it. The EU won't do anything. NATO won't do anything. The USA and the UK are not really in a military or economic position to go it alone. And bottom line, even if they tried, the result would probably be a lot of cities reduced to green glass, because nuclear exchange is a real potential.

    Anyone who saw how Putin ignored Russian's constitution to keep himself in power permanently knows or should have known that he had a long-term agenda he intended to pursue. Ukraine is the first piece of this agenda, in my opinion. If he takes the entire country, it will not be the last.


    Edit: BTW, I haven't read the thread, so if I've reiterated points that have already been made, my apologies.
    Last edited by DiAnna; 03-02-14 at 12:16 AM.

  3. #143
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    what experts are those?
    Among those who have claimed responsibility is the Russian youth group Nashi. Dr Nazario’s view is that, even in the case of Georgia where the peak size of the attacks was substantially larger than the attacks on Estonia the year before, we simply do not have the evidence to attribute any of these attacks to a specific group or a Government agency. On the contrary, analysis of the data suggests non-State actors.
    http://www.publications.parliament.u...ucom/68/68.pdf


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Even Mr Buy-My-Book doesn't say the Russians did it because he has no proof, nor does anyone else. And Mr Buy-My-Book wasn't employed by the government after 2003.
    There was Russia's suspected mass botnet invasion of Estonia in 2007, which "staggered" the nation's largest bank, Hansabank, disrupted commerce and communications across the country and launched "distributed denial of service" (DDOS) attacks.
    However, sensationalism has a solid history of selling newspapers and books. You go, dude! Make that money!! Cha-ching!!!

    We'd be laughed out of the UN and off the world stage by even mentioning this incident in more than passing. Thanks God even Bush wasn't stupid enough to try anything on that kind of fuel.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Complete coincidence that the same tactics were then brought to bear against Georgia just as that country was being invaded by Russian troops?
    "The same tactics" as in a cyber attack? LOL! You don't even have proof it was the same program that was used in the attack, let alone evidence the Russian government was responsible in any way for Estonia.

    Yeah, coincidence and suspicion is a damn good reason to go to war or invoke trade sanctions - but after what Bush pulled in Iraq II I guess I can believe anything from the Conservative camp.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sure. Private Hackers in Russia. Just like Private Hackers in China.
    Should we have invoked trade sanctions with the UK after Anonymous hit us?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    So, if we build an F35, and then load it down with bombs, teach a guy how to fly and operate it, have him work for a defense contractor, give him the F35, and tell him we expect to see some crater-holes in, oh, say, this building this building and this building, well then, that's like, totally not us, right? It was private.
    One F-35: $100,000,000
    Top notch laptop: $3000
    Top notch desktop: $1500

    Anyone can get their hands on a computer and start hacking almost anything in the world at this point. When the F-35 price tag drops below $10,000 (hell, when it costs less than $10,000 just to fuel the plane) you let me know.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Actually we maintain that Cyber Attacks are Acts of War. So, by our own definitions the Russian government engaged in acts of war against a NATO ally and we.... well, we offered lots of moral encouragement at the mid-levels.
    First off:
    If we're going to go to war I'd just as soon have real proof that an act of war has been committed instead of just a hunch or coincidence. We've already managed to start a war for no good reason this century. I'd hate to see us do it again.

    Second:
    You have no proof at all that Russia did anything except tell Estonia to take a hike when Estonia asked for their help in the incident.

    Third:
    We should have immediately declared war on the UK when Anonymous hacked our government computers last year. It's obvious the British government was involved because the attacks originated in the UK and we know a street hacker couldn't possibly have gotten past OUR security measures. The Brits were using Anonymous as a front, I tell ya', and they should have been punished!!!
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 03-02-14 at 12:24 AM.
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  4. #144
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    http://www.publications.parliament.u...ucom/68/68.pdf


    Even Mr Buy-My-Book doesn't say the Russians did it because he has no proof, nor does anyone else. And Mr Buy-My-Book wasn't employed by the government after 2003. However, sensationalism has a solid history of selling newspapers and books. You go, dude! Make that money!! Cha-ching!!!

    We'd be laughed out of the UN and off the world stage by even mentioning this incident in more than passing. Thanks God even Bush wasn't stupid enough to try anything on that kind of fuel.


    "The same tactics" as in a cyber attack? LOL! You don't even have proof it was the same program that was used in the attack, let alone evidence the Russian government was responsible in any way for Estonia.

    Yeah, coincidence and suspicion is a damn good reason to go to war or invoke trade sanctions. After what Bush pulled in Iraq II I can believe anything from the Conservatives.


    Should we have invoked trade sanctions with the UK after Anonymous hit us?

    One F-35: $100,000,000
    Top notch laptop: $3000
    Top notch desktop: $1500

    Anyone can get their hands on a computer and start hacking almost anything in the world at this point. When the F-35 price tag drops below $10,000 (hell, when it costs less than $10,000 just to fuel the plane) you let me know.


    First off:
    If we're going to go to war I'd just as soon have real proof that of an act of war instead of just a hunch or coincidence. We've already managed to start a war for no good reason this century. I'd hate to see us do it again.

    Second:
    You have no proof at all that Russia did anything except tell Estonia to take a hike when Estonia asked for their help in the incident.

    Third:
    We should have immediately declared war on the UK when Anonymous hacked our government computers last year. It's obvious the British government was involved because the attacks originated in the UK and we know a street hacker couldn't possibly have gotten past OUR security measures. The Brits were using Anonymous as a front, I tell ya', and they should have been punished!!!
    These are all good points. The question is, 'what is the proper response' here. Maybe a debilitating computer virus unleashed on Russia?

  5. #145
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by SBu View Post
    These are all good points. The question is, 'what is the proper response' here. Maybe a debilitating computer virus unleashed on Russia?
    Hey, if we can do it and not get caught I'd be all for it. But we tried that once, already, and we did get caught. Good thing it was just Iran and not someone with a real army and nukes.
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  6. #146
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Hey, if we can do it and not get caught I'd be all for it. But we tried that once, already, and we did get caught. Good thing it was just Iran and not someone with a real army and nukes.
    I believe I heard on the news that recent hacker attacks against retailers originated from Russia. Any thoughts on whether that was gov't sponsored or simply Russian gangs (of which there are a lot). Not too savy on the cyber news.

  7. #147
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by SBu View Post
    I believe I heard on the news that recent hacker attacks against retailers originated from Russia. Any thoughts on whether that was gov't sponsored or simply Russian gangs (of which there are a lot). Not too savy on the cyber news.
    Few governments initiate cyber attacks. It's bad news if they get caught at it. In fact, AFAIK we're the only government that's been caught doing it - with the exception of Russia and Georgia exchanging cyber blows during their "little war". So, either we're really, really stupid (which I have a hard time believing because we have the best hackers money can buy) or the others aren't doing it, or are doing it on a very, very small scale.

    I have little doubt that China sanctions the cyber attacks it's businesses carry out on our businesses but that's just modern corporate espionage, not an act of war.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 03-02-14 at 12:58 AM.
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  8. #148
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Putin has 150,000 troops on the border, they will be no match for the Ukrainian forces so fighting is futile. This is a NATO operation and the first thing they need to do is to hit Putin where it hurts, in the pocketbook. Embargo all Russian oil and natural gas sales and he will come around real quick. I repeat this is NATO's and Europes baby. it's their balls on the line. They can also fast track Georgia's entry into NATO
    I agree but Ukraine can fight too. They are also well armed.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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  9. #149
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yeah.....


    The government of Ukraine is a nigh-on-collapsed, bankrupt entity probably unable to exercise control over all of it's territory without Russian intervention. I put the odds of them successfully repulsing or even managing a serious impediment to Russia's seizure of the Ukraine at..... low.
    Okay that you think that Russia's seizure of Ukraine is low. But why do you think Ukraine cannot look after themselves if left alone again?
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

  10. #150
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Where were you during Syria? Too late now. Stop being silly.
    Not worried about Syria.

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