• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Are Public Schools In The US Biased Against Males?

Is there a bias against boys in the American educational system?

  • Total voters
    32
Dragonfly said:
Why Boys Struggle with School - FamilyEducation.com


Another question I have is this: is anything that different now as opposed to 50 years ago?

Were boys better behaved back then? Less physical? Easier to manage?
Weren't the majority of teachers in the 50's and 60's female?

Is this perhaps more about how boys are handled outside of school?

Less play outside, more video and computer games inside?
Click to expand...



50 years ago, children were much more strictly disciplined in school.... AND at home.

That's the single biggest difference.

Another is that there were more readily available outlets for their natural aggression and exploratory impulses... modern "zero tolerance" (for "violence") policy has acted much like shaking up a soda bottle then putting a cork in it... pressure builds up and something blows.
 
MaggieD said:
Oh, but the parents are often given incentive to allow such a diagnosis and treatment. What follows is subjective information.

I have extended family who adopted a child. He was diagnosed as ADHD at about age 3 after being evaluated (in this case) at the parents' request. As a result of that diagnosis and their decision to medicate him, his preschool is subsidized by the government; he is transported to and from preschool in a private van. This is HUGE. This child is "borderline autistic" because he likes to turn his bike over and spin one of the wheels every once in a while. This child is perfectly normal. It's damned sad.

School systems receive extra money based on the number of students qualified under Section 504.

As always, follow the money.
Click to expand...


ADHD is often the diagnosis, when the real problem is simply "needs more discipline, and/or more outlets for physical/aggression." Been there, seen that. Got the T-shirt.
 
Goshin said:
ADHD is often the diagnosis, when the real problem is simply "needs more discipline, and/or more outlets for physical/aggression." Been there, seen that. Got the T-shirt.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
So is the "discrimination" or "bias" against boys something that the educational system is doing, something that the teachers are doing, something that society is doing, or something that the parents are doing?

Or perhaps NOT doing as the case may be?

Teachers have a limited amount of time to cover a topic. Disruptions and distractions cause everyone to fall behind. What are teachers supposed to do with children that are constantly disruptive?

A teacher in public school can not devise endlessly different methods of teaching based on the individual needs of each child.

What should they do with the kid who won't sit down, won't pay attention, won't stop talking, and continually distracts others in the class?

To make matters even worse, what if the teacher has talked to the parents about this disruptive child, and the parents basically say "that's your problem - not mine" ?????
 
Thank you for raising up this topic.

When I was in school, most of my professors were women. Only in college did the ratio reverse and I had like... 1-2 college professors per semester as women. Most of the lab tutors were men... but I did do engineering school so most of the enrolled students were boys like me. We had 6 girls in a class of 70.
If you go to psychology or literature, you'll find the ratios reversed.

But let's stick to pre-college education.
The educational methods used today are great, really, top notch... for the XIXth century or early XXth century. But today, for the XXIth century, education needs to change. All of it. It's failing to do it's job.

Sir Ken Robinson made an excellent video on the subject on how children are being put through schools like a product through a factory.

Education needs to be a relative experience, as least state education. Some students need X years of education, others need X+-y. We need to revamp our educational system and the best way to do this is to build new, integrated schools. Schools should be these mega infrastructural entities that have everything from dormitories to classrooms and teachers who are competent to educate people on all interests. They should have sporting centers, they should have flexible work hours and well staffed with professionals and they should be immersive in the community and especially in close ties with the economic world.

Not all students are effective at the same periods of their life. Some work better in the morning, others are better in the afternoon, some are night owls and all other periods you can think of.

Maybe you, as an individual, operates best if you work out in the morning and hit the classrooms in the afternoon. Maybe you are at your peak if you study at night. There should be classes for all these opportunities so that people can explore themselves and their passions.
There should be regular interactions between companies adn industry leaders and the schools. In college was the first time I managed to speak or meet with people in the real world of technology, as I said, I did engineering. But it wasn't because the school brought them on, it was because the NGO I was part of organized events where students could hear these people speak. I wish I had those opportunities in highschool...

We're ruining our children by denying them the right kind of education. If you think it'll be too expensive... look at the cost of the lack of proper educational environment is doing. Unemployment. People working tedious jobs that should have been automated a decade ago. People who hate their jobs. People who are incompetent at their jobs. All because we aren't reforming our educational system. And this will cost money and energy but it needs to be done. It has to be done.

EDIT: To speak a little on the topic: the reason males are being disadvantaged is because most boys don't respond to authority figures in the same way most girls do. I was a good kid in school, always stayed out of trouble and was respectful to the teachers. But I never really "respected" them if I had nothing to learn from them. History teacher... I knew more history then her and my grandfather taught me more than I would have liked... which is a whole different rant on why history shouldnt' be taught to people under 15 or 16. English, I was already fluent and doing the same mind-numbing exercises was boring and tedious. I appreciated their position, but they weren't for me. So I never respected them in the same way I respected my math teacher (she was a woman) or my physics teacher (he was a man) who actually taught me things and more importantly, helped me discover how to think properly about problems and how to solve them.
Something that came in handy, and I expanded upon, in college.
 
Last edited:
While I'm not disagreeing with your assessment of the educational system overall - I don't think it's quite on-topic.

Is there a direct, or indirect bias or discrimination against boys?

Or is the problem just that there's currently no reasonable or acceptable method of figuring out how to handle those kids that are tough to handle and/or disruptive. Which just happens to be boys the majority of the time.

And it's not all boys is it?

The problem seems to be more that "we" don't know how or what to do with kids that can't focus like the others.

What do "we" do with the rammy, bouncing off the walls, can't sit still, unable to focus and concentrate, and/or disruptive students?

Ignore them? Fail them? Shuffle them through? Grade them differently? Send them to a different school? Put them in special classes? Medicate them? Hold them back? Start them later?
 
Dragonfly said:
Lori Day: Why Boys Are Failing in an Educational System Stacked Against Them


So I ask:

1)
Should we segregate boys and girls into different schools, or at least separate classrooms?
Click to expand...

2) Should boys start school at an older age than girls? If girls start first grade at 6 years old - should boys be made to wait until 7?

3) Do boys require male teachers?
Click to expand...




Generally I am opposed to any kind of segregation, But this might help the boys and the girls.

I don't believe that there's a bias against boys, but I do believe that they pay a price for acting up.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Boys mature later than girls, tend to be more physically active than girls, and more likely to act out. Boys should start school about six months later than girls do, but, of course, that's politically impossible.

Little boys and little girls are not the same.
Click to expand...
 The problem is, we have to treat them as if they were.
Click to expand...




They never have been and they never will be.

It's almost like two different species.
 
My local paper used to have a regular feature of posting pics of the "student of the month" from the various high schools around town. I followed this for perhaps five years or so, and not once were there as many boys as girls and the typical ratio was two or three girls for each boy chosen. I would not go so far as to say this indicated any sort of bias, but there was certainly a very clear and undeniable pattern.

The system rewards cooperation and compliance, and boys will often challenge authority more directly than girls. This puts them at a disadvantage, and perhaps it is simply a case of girls having more awareness than boys in how to milk the system to earn the grade, but in any determination of bias I would suspect the differences lie in the way the genders socialize.
 
clownboy said:
Might just as easily say teachers discriminate and are biased against females. Math education is a clear example.
Click to expand...

My high school calculus and physics classes had as many girls as boys and they did as well.

This was over 40 years ago.
 
MaggieD said:
Oh, but the parents are often given incentive to allow such a diagnosis and treatment. What follows is subjective information.

I have extended family who adopted a child. He was diagnosed as ADHD at about age 3 after being evaluated (in this case) at the parents' request. As a result of that diagnosis and their decision to medicate him, his preschool is subsidized by the government; he is transported to and from preschool in a private van. This is HUGE. This child is "borderline autistic" because he likes to turn his bike over and spin one of the wheels every once in a while. This child is perfectly normal. It's damned sad.

School systems receive extra money based on the number of students qualified under Section 504.

As always, follow the money.
Click to expand...

School systems cannot make any medical diagnosis such as autism or ADHD. That strictly must come from a medical doctor.
 
Dragonfly said:
What do "we" do with the rammy, bouncing off the walls, can't sit still, unable to focus and concentrate, and/or disruptive students?

?
Click to expand...

I would think the first step would be to determine why they are bouncing off the walls.

In many cases, the answer is to challenge them. THere is nothing quite like a dull, rote learning process geared towards a low-average learning ability to elicit restlessness in a bright boy.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
School systems cannot make any medical diagnosis such as autism or ADHD. That strictly must come from a medical doctor.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean to imply they could. But they certainly suggest to parents that their children be tested...
 
Dragonfly said:
Is there a bias against boys in the American educational system?
Click to expand...

There was a study done which states different regions of the brain develop in a different sequence, and different tempo, in girls compared with boys. Kids are expected to sit for longer periods of time and engage in such tasks as reading and writing. Those two tasks require attentional skills. Many schools have cut down breaks such as recess. They have taken away such important brain development curricula such as music and art. Vocational schools are limited if not nonexistent in certain districts. Now we are surprised more boys are being referred to team meetings with so called attentional problems?
 
Dragonfly said:
Is there a bias against boys in the American educational system?
Click to expand...

Of course, you already know how I feel, but just to reiterate I think there is a bias against boys in our education system, though not intentional. The way we go about teaching lessons and the school environment is just not an ideal learning situation for a lot of boys. Also, the way they are phasing out physical activity time during school hours (which is up to 6-1/2 hours a day), is not helpful to letting both boys and girls let off some energy and stress.
 
ChrisL said:
Do you know how the doctor goes about making a diagnosis of ADHD?
Click to expand...

Depends on the doctor. Some doctors will just prescribe pills if parents urge and/or insist their child has attentional issues. Some make them fill out questionnaires. Some want to see if the child is making progress in school and requires a full core evaluation before making a diagnosis.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
Depends on the doctor. Some doctors will just prescribe pills if parents urge and/or insist their child has attentional issues. Some make them fill out questionnaires. Some want to see if the child is making progress in school and requires a full core evaluation before making a diagnosis.
Click to expand...

Yes, the questionnaire. Here is an example of such questionnaire. Would you feel comfortable putting your . . . say 6-year-old son on Ritalin based upon these questions?

Child Attention Deficit Disorder (ADHD) Test - Psych Central
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
No, but some doctors do.
Click to expand...

Yes, the standards they use for drugging up our little boys are disgusting and sub par. IMO, all of those things on that questionnaire describe a "normal" little boy, and some girls too. Not everyone can sit still for HOURS. It doesn't mean they should be medicated to make an educator's job "easier." I still wonder what the long-term effects of these drugs will be.

I don't think that the huge school administration really cares about MY child as an individual but just making things easier for themselves and their teachers.
 
Cripes, going through some of those question, even I answer yes to some of them, at least SOME of the time. I guess I should get me some Ritalin.
 
ChrisL said:
Yes, the standards they use for drugging up our little boys are disgusting and sub par. IMO, all of those things on that questionnaire describe a "normal" little boy, and some girls too. Not everyone can sit still for HOURS. It doesn't mean they should be medicated to make an educator's job "easier." I still wonder what the long-term effects of these drugs will be.

I don't think that the huge school administration really cares about MY child as an individual but just making things easier for themselves and their teachers.
Click to expand...

Only a doctor and parent can decide if a child is medicated. People cannot blame schools for medicating children. With that said, schools are at blame for no longer taking children's developmental growth into account when planning curriculum. You would be hard pressed to find a kindergarten class involved in developmental play now a days. Any kind of hands on play is considered "time off learning" rather than brain development. Mostly because many of the people involved in the planning don't have a clue about children's brain development. Kindergarten kids mostly sit at desk with pencil and paper doing what third graders did 20 years ago. Our school this year was told to put away the blocks and dress up center and put some more desks in the class. This is playing out in schools across the country under the guise of school reform.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
Only a doctor and parent can decide if a child is medicated. People cannot blame schools for medicating children. With that said, schools are at blame for no longer taking children's developmental growth into account when planning curriculum. You would be hard pressed to find a kindergarten class involved in developmental play now a days. Any kind of hands on play is considered "time off learning" rather than brain development. Mostly because many of the people involved in the planning don't have a clue about children's brain development. Kindergarten kids mostly sit at desk with pencil and paper doing what third graders did 20 years ago. Our school this year was told to put away the blocks and dress up center and put some more desks in the class. This is playing out in schools across the country under the guise of school reform.
Click to expand...

The trends you describe are based on the idea that kids are better readers and mathematicians if they just start formal reading and math instruction earlier and earlier. Educational research does not bear this out, but still the idea persists that "reform" means "high expectations" which means formal reading and math instruction at earlier ages.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom