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Are men in the western world losing their masculinity?

Are Western men becoming less masculine?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 38.1%
  • No

    Votes: 19 45.2%
  • Meatloaf Sandwich

    Votes: 7 16.7%

  • Total voters
    42
DA, the fact you said "provided you include the proper vitamin supplements" to support the argument that it is a healthy diet made me laugh.

Good, the world needs more laughter.

And yes, for an ideal plant-based diet, a couple of supplements (B12, calcium, possibly vitamin D and/or iron) may be necessary. So what? Just take a decent multivitamin - especially if you life weights (like I do).

What is the big deal?

It's still far cheaper, far more sustainable for humanity (about 7-13 calories of feed for every calorie of meat, depending on animal) and healthier long term.

But, if you want to spend far more money, have (on average) worse long-term health and reduce the world's overall food supply far in excess of your meat-based caloric intake...go ahead.
 
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I guess the men in the eastern world don't drink out of plastic cartons, they drink it right out of the donkey.
 
Of course reliable studies might convince me otherwise, but I've read way too many "chemical/health" angst hysterias before to take that one seriously. Btw, some other day, I read that testosterone is decreasing in men, and blamed was the eating of meat. Yes, eating of meat: In industrial meet production, the animals are filled with growth hormones and ostrogenes for that they give more milk and grow more meat. By consuming non-bio meat, men are basically eating female hormones. ;)

But hey, you can read about dozens of such theories all around the web, and my impression is that even when these theories/headlines are based on serious studies, the conclusions are usually grossly exaggerated and the genuine scientists are much more relaxed about the possibility to draw conclusions based on their findings.


If we're talking about social demasculation, though, that's a different topic. I tend to agree that in many Western regions, males are increasingly strolling apart from the classic "masculine" gender role that's traditionally upheld by some. But how you view that obviously depends on what you think of these traditional gender roles in the first place.
 
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But who is exempt to plastic exposure and thus secures themselves a place in the "Byzantine" throne?

Ahhh! The Throne of Byzanz and how to grab it. What a game!
 
Ummm, no it is not (provided you include the proper vitamin supplements). It is far healthier then a meat-based diet (with certain vitamin supplements) and FAR less expensive.
How EXACTLY is a vegan diet unhealthy?
A vegan diet is unbalanced that's why it's unhealthy. You mentioned supplements. I think natural supplements to a vegan diet such as meat, fish & eggs would do fine. And actually that is what most call themselves do. They cheat once in a while. So what.

Nonsense.

Clinical studies show no effects of soy protein or isoflavones on reproductive hormones in men: results of a meta-analysis

Elsevier
An irrelevant link to a non-scientific study of selected studies does not trump medical science.

The mechanism of the endocrine disrupting compounds found in soy have been known for decades. We know how they work.

I did not say it was the best, I said it was 'great' as a vegan source of protein.

And meat is not the best source if protein...whey is much better.

It is easier on the liver and other organs, avoids many red meat long-term health problems, the body absorbs the protein more completely then meat and is much cheaper then meat.
1st of all, red meat does not cause health problems. That's a myth. Beef is an extremely nutritious health food. The only downside is that it tends to be expensive, which is why nefarious scoundrels will use cheap toxic soy as a filler in hamburger.

And besides being toxic, soy also contains protease inhibitors which interfere with protein & fat digestion.

And the problem with whey is that it's had most of it's nutrients removed. Meat & eggs are much healthier. Or even the milk that you got the whey from in the first place.
 
So - after reading the new responses after my earlier post here's my 2nd opinion:

#1: We're a fractured society. There is no longer one governing social / cultural body.
#2: Masculinity and Feminity are concepts defined by a consensus of said social / cultural body - both change over time. Nothing these days reflects what it was 100 and 200 years ago (and so on).
#3: If guy want to claim things are 'declining' they need to get together and come to an agreement on what masculinity *is* to begin with.

I would prefer if guys don't resort to: fashion, entertainment options, choice of food and drink - because these are relatively insignificant overall and fluctuate widely decade to decade. Also: things like food seem to plant "masculine" as being "choosing anything that's unhealthy" like "beer and pizza."

Let's see some form of accepted masculinity that: Doesn't side-line health, education, or morality.

Because if it keeps taking the next rung down - and down - soon being 'masculine' is going to equal 'being in a biker gang' or 'being a street bum'

It seems that, so far, the only thing some guys want to agree on are that 'masculine guys' have more 'muscle' or 'physical capabilities' - without factoring in things like 'only using your physical ability when it's necessary' . . . so that leaves things open: it can go all over from war hero to street thug, honestly.
 
deleted -- double post
 
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So - after reading the new responses after my earlier post here's my 2nd opinion:

#1: We're a fractured society. There is no longer one governing social / cultural body.
#2: Masculinity and Feminity are concepts defined by a consensus of said social / cultural body - both change over time. Nothing these days reflects what it was 100 and 200 years ago (and so on).
#3: If guy want to claim things are 'declining' they need to get together and come to an agreement on what masculinity *is* to begin with.

I would prefer if guys don't resort to: fashion, entertainment options, choice of food and drink - because these are relatively insignificant overall and fluctuate widely decade to decade. Also: things like food seem to plant "masculine" as being "choosing anything that's unhealthy" like "beer and pizza."

Let's see some form of accepted masculinity that: Doesn't side-line health, education, or morality.

Because if it keeps taking the next rung down - and down - soon being 'masculine' is going to equal 'being in a biker gang' or 'being a street bum'

It seems that, so far, the only thing some guys want to agree on are that 'masculine guys' have more 'muscle' or 'physical capabilities' - without factoring in things like 'only using your physical ability when it's necessary' . . . so that leaves things open: it can go all over from war hero to street thug, honestly.

Typical female response. However, you're wrong.

Testosterone affects the development of the brain, hence there is a biological argument here and not just a social argument.

Some differences between a male and female brain which are due to testosterone either early in life as the brain develops, or as it acts on the brain continually:

Size: the male human brain is, on average, larger.
Risk tolerance: A study found a correlation between testosterone and risk tolerance in career choice
Attention - ability to focus in on one task
Memory - males have better memory
Spatial Ability - testosterone affects the development of the area of the brain that controls spatial intelligence. Hence, males are better at it.

- Preliminary evidence suggests that low testosterone levels may be a risk factor for cognitive decline and possibly for dementia of the Alzheimer's


Further biological/brain related affects of testosterone:

Aggression and criminality - Many studies have shown that males of all species are more aggressive than females, and males are more likely to commit crimes. Their involvement in crime usually rises in the early teens to mid teens, at the same time as testosterone levels rise. Castration of males usually has a pacifying effect on their aggressive behavior.

Competition - Testosterone is known to make people more competitive.



And so on. These things are all backed up by science. So let's see here..... I said that sports are a sign of masculinity. Gee, what are sports if not COMPETITIVE? And competition is a testosterone-driven trait.

And so on.
 
Typical female response. However, you're wrong.

Testosterone affects the development of the brain, hence there is a biological argument here and not just a social argument.

Some differences between a male and female brain which are due to testosterone either early in life as the brain develops, or as it acts on the brain continually:

Size: the male human brain is, on average, larger.
Risk tolerance: A study found a correlation between testosterone and risk tolerance in career choice
Attention - ability to focus in on one task
Memory - males have better memory
Spatial Ability - testosterone affects the development of the area of the brain that controls spatial intelligence. Hence, males are better at it.

- Preliminary evidence suggests that low testosterone levels may be a risk factor for cognitive decline and possibly for dementia of the Alzheimer's


Further biological/brain related affects of testosterone:

Aggression and criminality - Many studies have shown that males of all species are more aggressive than females, and males are more likely to commit crimes. Their involvement in crime usually rises in the early teens to mid teens, at the same time as testosterone levels rise. Castration of males usually has a pacifying effect on their aggressive behavior.

Competition - Testosterone is known to make people more competitive.



And so on. These things are all backed up by science. So let's see here..... I said that sports are a sign of masculinity. Gee, what are sports if not COMPETITIVE? And competition is a testosterone-driven trait.

And so on.

I must be a moron. I thought it made men hornier, more aggressive with endurance and stamina. Why is that not menitioned?
 
I must be a moron. I thought it made men hornier, more aggressive with endurance and stamina. Why is that not menitioned?

It does. It does a lot more than what I mentioned, those were just a few examples I pulled from the google. Some people believe that men and women are exactly the same, aside from our obvious physical differences. I wanted to point out that the body of scientific evidence doesn't support this - that actually testosterone structurally changes the brain and therefore men and women are very different.

These differences are what define masculinity and femininity, and it's NOT all culturally driven. Much of it is hard-wired. Take sports, for example. Sports are aggressive and competitive.... the BIOLOGICAL hallmarks of masculinity.
 
Also: things like food seem to plant "masculine" as being "choosing anything that's unhealthy" like "beer and pizza."
First there's someone trying to claim that a toxic waste product like soy that causes all kind of damage to the body like mess up hormone levels, cause hypothyroidism and actually has even been shown to shrink your brain is good for you!

Now we have you saying that healthy foods like pizza and beer are bad for your health!

WTF?!? Is this opposite-land or are you people just incredibly uneducated about human nutrition?
 
First there's someone trying to claim that a toxic waste product like soy that causes all kind of damage to the body like mess up hormone levels, cause hypothyroidism and actually has even been shown to shrink your brain is good for you!

Now we have you saying that healthy foods like pizza and beer are bad for your health!

WTF?!? Is this opposite-land or are you people just incredibly uneducated about human nutrition?




Anyone who doesn't enjoy beer and pizza ain't much of a man!
 
I think "metro sexual" says a lot. It's not a gender identity crisis, rather a switching away from traditional cultural traits, based on sex.
 
Typical female response. However, you're wrong.

Testosterone affects the development of the brain, hence there is a biological argument here and not just a social argument.

Size: the male human brain is, on average, larger.
Risk tolerance: A study found a correlation between testosterone and risk tolerance in career choice
Attention - ability to focus in on one task
Memory - males have better memory
Spatial Ability - testosterone affects the development of the area of the brain that controls spatial intelligence. Hence, males are better at it.

And so on. These things are all backed up by science. So let's see here..... I said that sports are a sign of masculinity. Gee, what are sports if not COMPETITIVE? And competition is a testosterone-driven trait.

What I'm getting at is this:
Masculinity has two components (so does femininity - but that's not what we're focusing on here). One component is always in flux decade-decade and century-century (1,000 years ago - they had flux. 500 years ago - they had flux. Today - we have flux). The other component does not fluctuate so wildly. It's more of a solid standard that you see in a vast array of cultures throughout history and worldwide. It's not enough to just focus on the 'flux' components (drink, entertainment, sport) and hold to that - those will change, they always have.

Part 1: The STANDARD. The few traits that are found in almost every society - throughout a large span of history. These do not change much, and if they do it's very slow. A vast majority of societies will exhibit these traits, embrace them, and use them as they define masculinity. By this: you'd be able to find similar traits that go back to our European history as a Roman and even Greek society - and odds are - these same traits are found in a vast majority of cultures worldwide.

Physical attributes: Most people will think slender = feminine, stout = masculine (muscular or fat doesn't matter). However, what people are really focusing on are two things: a notable bustline-to-waist differentia. Masculinity does not contain a 'hips' or 'bust' component. That is in with the 'femininity'. If a male has gynecomastia he is seen as being emasculated. If he has a narrow waist or a pronounced backside, he shouldn't flaunt it (to do so, even if you're not attracted to males, is seen as 'being gay' - and yes, this is a standard. It's taken different names and been met with different responses which fluctuate but being seen 'as a girl' physically is 'gay' in most societies.)

In our nation's direct history (European) the only time this was not a standard was during the time of the Greeks and some time for the Romans where males who were youthful (smooth complexion/young features - and who stood in controposto post) were heralded as idyllic - it was a sign of physical fitness and agility. That doesn't qualify today. Men do not stand in controposto pose like Woody from Toy Story or Michelangelo's David.

Superiority over others:This is where your reference to 'competition' and so on might be seen. Competition itself is not governed by testosterone (because women, high in estrogen, are highly competitive as well). What this regards is the FORM that competitive nature is permitted to surface. Masculine = engaging in physical forms of competition. Feminine = engaging in non physical forms of competition *or* competition that focuses on physical appearance and style (Figure skating VS Football.). This is society's default. Why? Because it goes hand in hand with this: holding any position in society, a group, or culture which people rely *on you* or *look to you* to meet their needs.

Military, Law enforcement, government, judiciary, business management. Any time you have *people* serving underneath you or you have influence over the future of someone's life. you're seen as more masculine.

Superiority can be seen in your post with your choice of "men are better than women at ___ and ___" type references. You cannot escape (most males can't) that need to feel or be deemed better than others. A lot of men default to this - and it's seen throughout history, the compulsion to prove they're better (and the difficulty in accepting the reality when they're not - such as having 'better memories' and so on).

Potential - Earnings or otherwise: Yes - the *potential* to succeed is an early sign of 'masculinity' - some might argue it's more an issue of 'lazy' vs 'outgoing' or what not - but I think that gauging one's "potential future as a successful male in society" is the drive by parents and children early on that lead to certain choices which support various 'male-strong' paths in life.

Part 2: the FLUX. Fashion, entertainment, sports choices. This relies on trends and things that are 'in' - etc. Whatever this is: it's usually "the opposite of what the girls do" and "the girls who do this are 'one of the guys' or 'tomboys'." (Vice versa: femininity flux is anything that's 'not what the boys do' - boys don't paint their nails or wear makeup.) But exactly what that is changes over time.

Figure skating VS Football (obvious reasons, here. Football relies on stout males and physical prowess. Figure Skating relies on feminine traits such as flexibility, poise, and appearances. Curling was a highly masculine sport in Scottland, yet these days most see it as being 'girly' - or 'nerdy'. Nerdy is often associate with the 'effeminate male' who's 'smart'. Other things are: jargon/language used, certain forms of employment (feminine: being a nurse and secretary.)

Because these things are flux - I disregard all of them. I think they're too menial to place any value in. They'll change numerous times *in my lifetime* so they hardly matter it they swing so wildly. Yet time and again too many people seem to hone in on *these* and make them of a higher importance. Likely: it's because they're personal *choices* and not 'I was born this way, I can't change who I am' - A guy can pretend to like football and force himself to swill beer.

Other things are changing, though, and this is where thread should focus on:

Advancements and Changes: Certain industries have altered what people need to do in order to survive. Some changes are unprecedented in the history of human evolution: we no longer *need* to know how to hunt (for one example). We no longer need to collectively know how to redirect water sources to service our needs, or construct our own dwellings to live in (etc). For the first time in history: you do not have to be *exceptionally wealthy* in order to have others *provide you with a needed service or good* in order to ensure your survival.

- And this is what's changed so considerably that, even before the 1950's and the 1900's, the average citizen of the US no longer retained certain traits that were *standard* for survival throughout our history.

If we apply the 1800's standard of masculinity and femininity to society today you'd have a VERY different picture. A vast majority of our population (Yep - I wager more than 5/8) wouldn't qualify for either. . . and I don't think that testosterone levels have *anything to do with that*

Life itself has shifted - what was once frowned on (being the intellectually withdrawn and socially inept individual) can be the exact thing needed to set yourself up with a satisfactory life (in the new, technology reliant world we have).

And on and on - but you get my point?

Don't place too much value in menial crap that fluctuates and does NOT matter. NO myths. Masculinity and Femininity have notable, relatively unchanging components seen throughout history and they're unified by these.

I'm tempted to included being 'educated' as a standard because it's been an essential component of life since the days of the Greek - but I'm not too sure about that.
 
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A vegan diet is unbalanced that's why it's unhealthy. You mentioned supplements. I think natural supplements to a vegan diet such as meat, fish & eggs would do fine. And actually that is what most call themselves do. They cheat once in a while. So what.
Prove it using links to unbiased facts/data?

An irrelevant link to a non-scientific study of selected studies does not trump medical science.
From the linked study you say was 'non-specific'

'Fifteen placebo-controlled treatment groups with baseline and ending measures were analyzed. In addition, 32 reports involving 36 treatment groups were assessed in simpler models to ascertain the results.'

This study was run by one medical doctor and six Ph.D.'s.


The mechanism of the endocrine disrupting compounds found in soy have been known for decades. We know how they work.
Then you should have no problem providing plenty of links to large unbiased, scientific studies performed recently that proves your statement.

1st of all, red meat does not cause health problems. That's a myth. Beef is an extremely nutritious health food. The only downside is that it tends to be expensive, which is why nefarious scoundrels will use cheap toxic soy as a filler in hamburger.

From just the first link on Google I found about the negative effects of red meat:

'Negative Health Effects of Red Meat
Regardless, nutritionists hardly need more evidence about the potentially negative health effects of eating red meat. For starters, the saturated animal fat in red meat contributes to heart disease and atherosclerosis. Recent research also shows that frequent red meat eaters face twice the risk of colon cancer as those who indulge less often. Red meat is also thought to increase the risks of rheumatoid arthritis and endometriosis.

Meanwhile, according to the American Dietetic Association, vegetarian diets can significantly reduce the risk of heart disease, colon cancer, osteoporosis, diabetes, kidney disease, hypertension, obesity, and other debilitating medical conditions. While red meat is a key source of protein and vitamin B12 in North American diets, nutritionists explain that properly planned meat-free diets easily provide these important nutrients while keeping you healthier in the long run.'


Red Meat – What are the Negative Health Effects of Red Meat?

And besides being toxic, soy also contains protease inhibitors which interfere with protein & fat digestion.
Again, where are your links to unbiased factual proof to back up this statement?
 
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