View Poll Results: Questions regarding discrimination

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  • Is he discriminating against white power rallies?

    16 76.19%
  • Is he discriminating against white people?

    1 4.76%
  • If there is discrimination, should it be legally allowed?

    13 61.90%
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Thread: Is this unreasonable/illegal discrimination?

  1. #41
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    Re: Is this unreasonable/illegal discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    ****, I hate these questions. I think if he was discriminating against white people and not against a political group(ie if he was discriminating against people for what they are, as opposed to what they do), then no. You caught the distinction with your first two questions. On the other hand, it is not an issue I take a strong stance on and I can see both sides. I would also point out the lack of correlation with laws like those under discussion in Arizona. What you describe and those laws are different. Gotta say I am looking forward to reading the rest of the thread and seeing what direction you go with this.
    Since people are (naturally) tieing this to Arizona, I'll explain what caused me to think about this in a very generalized way...but I'd like to actually try to keep the discussion on the hypothetical as opposed to becoming another topic fully focused on Arizona (since there's already dozens of those on it).

    Something I read today put forward an interesting notion to me regarding some things happening in Arizona (which I'm admittedly not very well versed on). Essentially, pondering the difference between refusing service to a GAY person for being gay because you have a religious issue with it...and refusing service to an EVENT because it's something you have a religious issues with.

    Essentially, that there's a bit of a grey area between discriminating against a person for their orientation, and discriminating against an event or action. And because this is such a wedge issue, and like all wedge issues both sides get deeply entrenched and are afraid of any middle ground for fear of losing an inch, that grey area doesn't really get talked about.

    That's kind of what led me to this notion.

    Undoubtably, if someone walked into a shop and wants to buy some BBQ something and they went "No, I don't sell to white people" that'd be a problem.

    And undoubtably, if someone walked into a shop and wants to buy catering services for an event celebrating Charley Mansen and they went "No, I don't want to sell my services to such an event" that there'd probably not be a problem.

    HOWEVER...I do think you get into a grey area when you're talking about an event that's tied to a protected status. On one hand, the Business Owner has rights as to what he does with his time and energy and what things his business's name and product will be attached to. On the other hand, the basis for his disagreement is tied in some fashion or degree to the protected class.

    It's a sticky issue that I think is missed out on a significant and legitimate discussion because discrimination issues are such an emotional wedge in nature that people are afraid of even exploring.

    As it comes to Arizona...do I think a person should be able to discriminate against a customer because they're gay and that's against their religion? No. Do I think they should be able to discriminate against an event because the events purpose is against their religion? I have a bit harder time coming down definitively on that one.

    For my example....

    Black business owner refuses to sell his BBQ to a a white guy. Problem.

    Black business owner refuses to cater a motorcycle rally of a white guy because he has an issue with white people. Problem.

    Black business owner refuses to cater a motorcycle rally of a white guy because he has an issue with motorcycles after his son died on one? No problem.

    Black business owner refuses to cater a white power rally of a white guy because he has an issue with white power rallys? A lot harder for me to say "problem".

  2. #42
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    Re: Is this unreasonable/illegal discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Since people are (naturally) tieing this to Arizona, I'll explain what caused me to think about this in a very generalized way...but I'd like to actually try to keep the discussion on the hypothetical as opposed to becoming another topic fully focused on Arizona (since there's already dozens of those on it).

    Something I read today put forward an interesting notion to me regarding some things happening in Arizona (which I'm admittedly not very well versed on). Essentially, pondering the difference between refusing service to a GAY person for being gay because you have a religious issue with it...and refusing service to an EVENT because it's something you have a religious issues with.

    Essentially, that there's a bit of a grey area between discriminating against a person for their orientation, and discriminating against an event or action. And because this is such a wedge issue, and like all wedge issues both sides get deeply entrenched and are afraid of any middle ground for fear of losing an inch, that grey area doesn't really get talked about.

    That's kind of what led me to this notion.

    Undoubtably, if someone walked into a shop and wants to buy some BBQ something and they went "No, I don't sell to white people" that'd be a problem.

    And undoubtably, if someone walked into a shop and wants to buy catering services for an event celebrating Charley Mansen and they went "No, I don't want to sell my services to such an event" that there'd probably not be a problem.

    HOWEVER...I do think you get into a grey area when you're talking about an event that's tied to a protected status. On one hand, the Business Owner has rights as to what he does with his time and energy and what things his business's name and product will be attached to. On the other hand, the basis for his disagreement is tied in some fashion or degree to the protected class.

    It's a sticky issue that I think is missed out on a significant and legitimate discussion because discrimination issues are such an emotional wedge in nature that people are afraid of even exploring.

    As it comes to Arizona...do I think a person should be able to discriminate against a customer because they're gay and that's against their religion? No. Do I think they should be able to discriminate against an event because the events purpose is against their religion? I have a bit harder time coming down definitively on that one.

    For my example....

    Black business owner refuses to sell his BBQ to a a white guy. Problem.

    Black business owner refuses to cater a motorcycle rally of a white guy because he has an issue with white people. Problem.

    Black business owner refuses to cater a motorcycle rally of a white guy because he has an issue with motorcycles after his son died on one? No problem.

    Black business owner refuses to cater a white power rally of a white guy because he has an issue with white power rallys? A lot harder for me to say "problem".
    Being a business owner in AZ for whom this kind of thing is likely to have an impact let me give you another example:

    I prepare taxes and represent people who are in trouble with the IRS. Arizona doesn't recognize same sex marriages but the IRS does. This presents a situation where a gay couple married in California but now living in AZ will have to file a joint federal return and separate AZ returns. Since this could, potentially, cause problems in the various systems and even cause a conflict of interest between my clients and myself (circumstances on one party may have a negative impact on the other) I have a stack of paperwork I will need signed. I could simply refuse to do the returns but, if I did that and they claimed that I was discriminating just because they were homosexual where does that leave me?

    Now, granted, this particular bill wouldn't be any help to me but the question of what is and what isn't discrimination is nowhere near as cut and dried as some would like to make it out to be. Furthermore, all the public emotional turmoil over this kind of stuff creates an environment where someone could very easily be acting quite legitimately in the interests of ALL parties involved yet still get hung out to dry due to the hypersensitivity we're experiencing.

  3. #43
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    Re: Is this unreasonable/illegal discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Since people are (naturally) tieing this to Arizona, I'll explain what caused me to think about this in a very generalized way...but I'd like to actually try to keep the discussion on the hypothetical as opposed to becoming another topic fully focused on Arizona (since there's already dozens of those on it).
    That's fine but I do get a last word on that..

    Something I read today put forward an interesting notion to me regarding some things happening in Arizona (which I'm admittedly not very well versed on). Essentially, pondering the difference between refusing service to a GAY person for being gay because you have a religious issue with it...and refusing service to an EVENT because it's something you have a religious issues with.
    The person, no. An event you disagree with, fine.
    Essentially, that there's a bit of a grey area between discriminating against a person for their orientation, and discriminating against an event or action. And because this is such a wedge issue, and like all wedge issues both sides get deeply entrenched and are afraid of any middle ground for fear of losing an inch, that grey area doesn't really get talked about.
    To me it is not all that gray, but I do agree that in most issues there is some gray area. It is why you get called a RINO and I get called a fake liberal. We both think about that gray area and see both sides.

    That's kind of what led me to this notion.

    Undoubtably, if someone walked into a shop and wants to buy some BBQ something and they went "No, I don't sell to white people" that'd be a problem.
    We have people on the board advocating that as a right.
    And undoubtably, if someone walked into a shop and wants to buy catering services for an event celebrating Charley Mansen and they went "No, I don't want to sell my services to such an event" that there'd probably not be a problem.
    I can think of some who might have a problem with an owner saying that. Trivial point I admit...

    HOWEVER...I do think you get into a grey area when you're talking about an event that's tied to a protected status. On one hand, the Business Owner has rights as to what he does with his time and energy and what things his business's name and product will be attached to. On the other hand, the basis for his disagreement is tied in some fashion or degree to the protected class.

    It's a sticky issue that I think is missed out on a significant and legitimate discussion because discrimination issues are such an emotional wedge in nature that people are afraid of even exploring.
    Some have mentioned a bakery refusing to cater a same sex wedding. I will use that as an example here. To my mind, businesses should be allowed to do that because it is not discriminating against gay people per se, but against an event they disapprove of. While they may disaprove of it based on the fact the people getting married are gay, that is one of those impossible to prove things.

    As it comes to Arizona...do I think a person should be able to discriminate against a customer because they're gay and that's against their religion? No. Do I think they should be able to discriminate against an event because the events purpose is against their religion? I have a bit harder time coming down definitively on that one.
    Are you familiar with the history of the bill and where it comes from? It comes from here originally, 1993...Religious Freedom Restoration Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. I thought you might find some of the history interesting.

    For my example....

    Black business owner refuses to sell his BBQ to a a white guy. Problem.

    Black business owner refuses to cater a motorcycle rally of a white guy because he has an issue with white people. Problem.

    Black business owner refuses to cater a motorcycle rally of a white guy because he has an issue with motorcycles after his son died on one? No problem.

    Black business owner refuses to cater a white power rally of a white guy because he has an issue with white power rallys? A lot harder for me to say "problem".
    How do you tell your second and third one apart? That to me is an important part of the issue.
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    Re: Is this unreasonable/illegal discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    A black man owns a barbeque joint and caters for events regularly; christmas parties, birthdays, weddings, etc.

    A local KKK outfit is having an annual "White Power" Rally and cookout and actually seeks to hire said black man to cater their event.

    The business owner, realizing that the event he'd be catering is a "White Power Rally", doesn't want the groups business and refuses to cater the event.

    A few questions here...

    1. Is the owner discriminating against catering "White Power" events?

    2. Is the owner discriminating against white people?

    3. If there is discrimination, is it discrimination that should be legally allowed?
    Forget discriminating. Just make the price sky high.

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    Re: Is this unreasonable/illegal discrimination?

    He's not discriminating at all. He has a choice who he caters to and who he doesn't. Now if he refused to provide service to any white person, ever, that would be a different matter, but he can refuse to do business with the KKK if he wants and that's not discrimination. Of course, you don't provide that as an option in your biased poll.
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    Re: Is this unreasonable/illegal discrimination?

    Yes to all three.

    It is absolutely discrimination. And it absolutely should be legal.

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    Re: Is this unreasonable/illegal discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post

    I am certain this business owner would allow service to white people who are not members of the KKK, and has in the afformentioned events he regularly caters for. He is not denying service based on race (or age/sex) he's denying service for what they say and have a history of which is violence.
    Regardless, if the end result is refusal to serve white people, or any other specific group, it is discrimination in the result of his policies and he is liable.

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    Re: Is this unreasonable/illegal discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The person, no. An event you disagree with, fine.
    Last I checked, a gay wedding is an event.

    Yeah...not at all hypocritical.

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    Re: Is this unreasonable/illegal discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    1. Is the owner discriminating against catering "White Power" events?
    Yes, however that discrimination is not illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    2. Is the owner discriminating against white people?
    No. Since the owner doesn't provide catering to "White Power" events held by blacks, white, reds, or yellows - not it's not discrimination based on race.

    Unlike a bakery that offers wedding cakes to anyone except for same-sex couples is discrimination based on the sexual orientation of the couple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    3. If there is discrimination, is it discrimination that should be legally allowed?
    It's not discrimination since that is not an event offered to anyone. Under the law discrimination occurs when the service is offered to some but not others based on classes identified in the States Public Accommodation laws. "White Supremest" political activities do not qualify as a race, religion, sex, age, or sexual orientation.


    (I just read the OP, now I'll go back and see what others have said, I just wanted to document my initial thoughts.)

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    Re: Is this unreasonable/illegal discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    A black man owns a barbeque joint and caters for events regularly; christmas parties, birthdays, weddings, etc.

    A local KKK outfit is having an annual "White Power" Rally and cookout and actually seeks to hire said black man to cater their event.

    The business owner, realizing that the event he'd be catering is a "White Power Rally", doesn't want the groups business and refuses to cater the event.

    A few questions here...

    1. Is the owner discriminating against catering "White Power" events?

    2. Is the owner discriminating against white people?

    3. If there is discrimination, is it discrimination that should be legally allowed?
    It personally think by refusing the cater the event, the owner is in fact discriminating. That said, I do not agree with the "refuse to associate" culture of political correctness in America. I think the way to win hearts is by showing people unconditional love and acceptance. Love the person (or people) that will then open a door to change their attitudes.

    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

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