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The fall of Rome equals US today?

The fall of Rome equals US today?

  • Yes, absolutely

    Votes: 9 22.0%
  • Some similarities, but not really

    Votes: 18 43.9%
  • No, not at all

    Votes: 13 31.7%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    Votes: 1 2.4%

  • Total voters
    41

radcen

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The fall of Rome equals US today?

You hear this a lot. People pointing out the poarallels between the US today and the fall of the Roman empire. Implying, of course, that we are on the downslope of our phase as a country.

Do you believe this is true? If so, why? If not, why not?
 
Let's see.

Allowing influence from the outside. Check!

Usurper in office. Check

Decadence Check!

Moral decay Check!

Economic problems Check!

Philosophical divisions Check!

Looking pretty bad for us.
 
Let's see.

Allowing influence from the outside. Check!

Usurper in office. Check

Decadence Check!

Moral decay Check!

Economic problems Check!

Philosophical divisions Check!

Looking pretty bad for us.

All the others I'll debate, but how is there a usurper in office?
 
Rome fell because of the military costs of maintaining its empire. Most great empires fall due to out of control defense spending.
 
All the others I'll debate, but how is there a usurper in office?

You're right, that's giving him too much credit.

How about *unqualified absolutist* who goes beyond his legal authority.
 
You're right, that's giving him too much credit.

How about *unqualified absolutist* who goes beyond his legal authority.

Really hate the man, don't ya?

Allowing influence from the outside. Check! Do you mean the influence of the new religion of Christianity on established society? Many historians agree that though there may not be established causation, there is certainly correlation between the expansion of the new faith with the decrease in power of the Roman Empire's institutions.

Usurper in office. Check! Don't know much Roman history obviously

Decadence Check! Don't know much American history, obviously

Moral decay Check! (see previous)

Economic problems Check! (see previous)

Philosophical divisions Check! On this point we can agree but I seem to remember something called the "War of Northern Aggression" or as most folks know it - The Civil War. Then there was the Jim Crow era, never mind the bigotry shown against first the Irish, then the Italians and of course those of the Jewish faith. Or in other words - there have always been philosophical divisions in this nation as in every other nation, the difference comes with the ability for those formerly ignored to now get their message, their thoughts, out to wider audiences.

Looking pretty bad for us. Which "us" would you be thinking about? Middle and old-aged white folks who fear changing demographics of this nation, I think is your "us" but I can't be sure.
 
Let's see.

Allowing influence from the outside. Check!

Usurper in office. Check

Decadence Check!

Moral decay Check!

Economic problems Check!

Philosophical divisions Check!

Looking pretty bad for us.

Moral decay? Rome was far more immoral during its most successful period.
 
Rome fell because of the military costs of maintaining its empire. Most great empires fall due to out of control defense spending.

Rome fell because its citizens became a culture that felt entitled to oppulance. The people became weak celf centered and spoiled much like the libs in US society.
 
Really hate the man, don't ya?

Allowing influence from the outside. Check! Do you mean the influence of the new religion of Christianity on established society? Many historians agree that though there may not be established causation, there is certainly correlation between the expansion of the new faith with the decrease in power of the Roman Empire's institutions.

Usurper in office. Check! Don't know much Roman history obviously

Decadence Check! Don't know much American history, obviously

Moral decay Check! (see previous)

Economic problems Check! (see previous)

Philosophical divisions Check! On this point we can agree but I seem to remember something called the "War of Northern Aggression" or as most folks know it - The Civil War. Then there was the Jim Crow era, never mind the bigotry shown against first the Irish, then the Italians and of course those of the Jewish faith. Or in other words - there have always been philosophical divisions in this nation as in every other nation, the difference comes with the ability for those formerly ignored to now get their message, their thoughts, out to wider audiences.

Looking pretty bad for us. Which "us" would you be thinking about? Middle and old-aged white folks who fear changing demographics of this nation, I think is your "us" but I can't be sure.

Comparison is what we're talking here not getting into a pissing match.

If you can deny any of those items are not happening in this country [as they did in Rome] shoot.

BTW: I *hate* no one but, it's becoming pretty clear who hates this country.
 
You're right, that's giving him too much credit.

How about *unqualified absolutist* who goes beyond his legal authority.

Obama rate of issuing executive orders is one of the lowest of any president in a hundred years:

a_560x0.png


Its actually quite remarkable there are so few considering the financial crisis and great recession. This whole "imperial presidency" crap is nothing but a right wing fantasy. Moreover, its hypocritical because you guys certainly were not complaining when Bush and Reagan issued all their executive orders and signing statements.
 
You're right, that's giving him too much credit.

How about *unqualified absolutist* who goes beyond his legal authority.

Leaving aside that the Roman Empire didn't end because of a usurper (though most people do think it ended due to too much Christianity -- there's a parallel you left out), I still want to ask if you really believe Obama is not rightfully your president.

Regarding your claim that he's an unqualified absolutist -- clearly, he must be qualified in the only way that matters, because your country voted for him.

Absolutist also seems unlikely, considering he has failed to pass so many pieces of legislation he wanted to pass. Quite the absolutist indeed -- he hasn't even managed to assassinate the bigoted old idiots in the opposition!
 
We're doing fine. The problem is, I think we are making some bad comparisons. Compared to Rome, the United States is a very young institution.
 
Rome fell because its citizens became a culture that felt entitled to oppulance. The people became weak celf centered and spoiled much like the libs in US society.

Rome's citizenry was as far from liberalism as you can get. The country had a state religion, no regard of civil liberties or individual rights, and out of control defense spending due to the costs of maintaing empire. You act like Rome had this bunch of liberal hippies out protesting the treatment of slaves or how Rome waged war.
 
The fall of Rome equals US today?

You hear this a lot. People pointing out the poarallels between the US today and the fall of the Roman empire. Implying, of course, that we are on the downslope of our phase as a country.

Do you believe this is true? If so, why? If not, why not?

Here is a piece from Carle C. Zimmerman, a Harvard professor in 1947, who made categorical observations of civilizations before their demise. Interesting.

http://huron2.aaps.k12.mi.us/smitha/HUM/PDF/rome-decline.pdf
 
Decay happens gradually.

The Eastern Empire went from strength to strength in spite of Rome's collapse. Indeed, their rigid adherence and attempt to interpret their religious framework led them astray from solving actual problems which led to their decay.
 
Obama rate of issuing executive orders is one of the lowest of any president in a hundred years:

a_560x0.png


Its actually quite remarkable there are so few considering the financial crisis and great recession. This whole "imperial presidency" crap is nothing but a right wing fantasy. Moreover, its hypocritical because you guys certainly were not complaining when Bush and Reagan issued all their executive orders and signing statements.

The Executive branch is meant to *enforce* not change laws. It's not how many it's the legality of the ones he has used.
 
The Executive branch is meant to *enforce* not change laws. It's not how many it's the legality of the ones he has used.

Translation: "Imperial Presidencies are ones that do things by Executive Order and Signing Statements that I don't agree with." ;)
 
Rome's citizenry was as far from liberalism as you can get. The country had a state religion, no regard of civil liberties or individual rights, and out of control defense spending due to the costs of maintaing empire. You act like Rome had this bunch of liberal hippies out protesting the treatment of slaves or how Rome waged war.

The thing Rome had in common with modern libs was a sense of entitlement. They rested on the accomplishments of those that came before them..
 
The fall of Rome equals US today?

You hear this a lot. People pointing out the poarallels between the US today and the fall of the Roman empire. Implying, of course, that we are on the downslope of our phase as a country.

Do you believe this is true? If so, why? If not, why not?

The main reason of the fall of the Roman Empire was more sinister and historians are beginning to realize this. The Roman Empire had a massive population decline of "true Romans" and especially among the powerful elite. This caused massive problems over many many decades and even centuries. The reason was rather simple... lead poisoning.

Roman water systems were built with lead pipes and there was a belief among the upper classes that lead was good for you. What we know today is it is far from it and causes things like insanity and sterility.

This eventually lead to a weak Empire and hence its downfall.
 
The main reason of the fall of the Roman Empire was more sinister and historians are beginning to realize this. The Roman Empire had a massive population decline of "true Romans" and especially among the powerful elite. This caused massive problems over many many decades and even centuries. The reason was rather simple... lead poisoning.

Roman water systems were built with lead pipes and there was a belief among the upper classes that lead was good for you. What we know today is it is far from it and causes things like insanity and sterility.

This eventually lead to a weak Empire and hence its downfall.

I'm not an ancient specialist, but just to let you know, it tends to be rather foolish to follow reductionist thinking for history-especially attributing the rise and fall of empires to lead poisoning.
 
The fall of Rome equals US today?

You hear this a lot. People pointing out the poarallels between the US today and the fall of the Roman empire. Implying, of course, that we are on the downslope of our phase as a country.

Do you believe this is true? If so, why? If not, why not?

I do think there are a lot of similarities. I also believe our best days are behind us as instead of us handing our children a better nation to live in, we when we die will be handing them a nation in worst shape than when we entered it. Gallup had a poll a couple of month ago I wished I would have saved where they asked are our best days as a nation ahead of us or behind us. Around 45% answered behind us vs. 40% ahead of us.

It is the debt that worries me the most, within a couple of years the interest payments on that debt will replace defense spending as the largest outlay, the number one budget item. Just think what may happen to those payment if interest rates return to normal, instead of paying 1-2% we have to pay 5-6%. We will be unable to sustain that.
 
The main reason of the fall of the Roman Empire was more sinister and historians are beginning to realize this. The Roman Empire had a massive population decline of "true Romans" and especially among the powerful elite. This caused massive problems over many many decades and even centuries. The reason was rather simple... lead poisoning.

Roman water systems were built with lead pipes and there was a belief among the upper classes that lead was good for you. What we know today is it is far from it and causes things like insanity and sterility.

This eventually lead to a weak Empire and hence its downfall.

I love how people with an agenda of one sort or another have tried to use the fall of the Romans as their pet example to demonstrate their validity of their agenda. Now we may be finding out it was quite mundane. Lol
 
Rome fell because its citizens became a culture that felt entitled to oppulance. The people became weak celf centered and spoiled much like the libs in US society.


Another one ignorant of real history. There was no single cause leading up to the collapse of the Roman Empire. Don't forget that those called "citizen" in the Roman Empire were a minority of those governed.
 
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