View Poll Results: The fall of Rome equals US today?

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Thread: The fall of Rome equals US today?

  1. #61
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    Re: The fall of Rome equals US today?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    An Empire is only as strong as its ruling class is it not? If that ruling class is weak or dying out then you start getting problems.
    This thread and concept is a false equivalency. The reason this country is the big dog in the world is our middle class.

    We built the largest middle class the world has ever known post WWII. A lot was luck. The only undamaged infrastructure after the war. We got to provide the materials to rebuild after the war. Plenty of jobs. They in turn spend the money. Created more jobs. We have been living off that kick start since.

    Without a strong middle class we are done as a country. Thats the danger for us. If the income inequality keeps whacking the middle class it will lead to slow decline but an ending that works out well for no one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    The constitution says corporations have some of the same rights as "persons".

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    Re: The fall of Rome equals US today?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoC_T View Post
    Not even remotely.

    Aside from some tenuous parallel with comparison of 'empires', the US isn't in decline.
    Hmmm... technologically it is. It's not going down economically but it is losing it's technological advantage. That's one thing the Western Roman empire never lost even at the very end, it was always technologically superior than it's foes...

    But the US has nothing to fear militarily. You have nukes. Nobody attacks a country that has nukes... well, no reasonable country attacks a country that has nukes. The USA can dwindle down it's defense spending to a skeleton crew army and still be safe.

  3. #63
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    Re: The fall of Rome equals US today?

    I did some research and talked to quite a few people who were there and the fall of Rome was basically caused by Bush and Obama.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


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    Re: The fall of Rome equals US today?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoC_T View Post
    You mean 'opulence'. This is possibly the most bizarrely inaccurate interpretation of Roman decline I've ever encountered in my entire life. I'd give a lot to see you stand up and make this claim at an esteemed convention of historians.
    Does any of this seem vaguely familiar?


    "Society and Culture
    By this time social classes in Rome were very different, the rich living extravagantly while the poor had not even the necessary to live. There were many unemployed people, which the government had to feed daily."

    "Roman society is often represented as one of social extremes - with the wealth, power and opulence of an emperor existing alongside the poverty"





    The Roman Empire - CDA's World History Wiki


    Obama and Michelle live like royalty while so many have suffered so much under his rule.

  5. #65
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    Re: The fall of Rome equals US today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Hmmm... technologically it is. It's not going down economically but it is losing it's technological advantage. That's one thing the Western Roman empire never lost even at the very end, it was always technologically superior than it's foes...

    But the US has nothing to fear militarily. You have nukes. Nobody attacks a country that has nukes... well, no reasonable country attacks a country that has nukes. The USA can dwindle down it's defense spending to a skeleton crew army and still be safe.
    True. I meant that, what's happening is other regions of the world are beginning to pull themselves up by the boot straps. Take China, for example. In effect, US hegemony would decrease as other nations advanced and become ever more self-sufficient. I don't subscribe to the idea that this in itself equates with decline.

  6. #66
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    Re: The fall of Rome equals US today?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
    This thread and concept is a false equivalency. The reason this country is the big dog in the world is our middle class.

    We built the largest middle class the world has ever known post WWII. A lot was luck. The only undamaged infrastructure after the war. We got to provide the materials to rebuild after the war. Plenty of jobs. They in turn spend the money. Created more jobs. We have been living off that kick start since.

    Without a strong middle class we are done as a country. Thats the danger for us. If the income inequality keeps whacking the middle class it will lead to slow decline but an ending that works out well for no one.
    Well yes, but in many ways the strong middle class is also the elite of the modern day. In Roman times only the ones with money had any power... in the US thanks to a strong middle class, then many more have money and hence power. That this is now declining in the US only shows the similarity with the Roman Empire again.. where a decline in the elite lead ultimately to the end of the Roman Empire.

    But yes, your so called "luck" after WW2 is the reason the US became the superpower it is today. Now we can discuss how much luck was involved in it..
    PeteEU

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    Re: The fall of Rome equals US today?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Does any of this seem vaguely familiar?


    "Society and Culture
    By this time social classes in Rome were very different, the rich living extravagantly while the poor had not even the necessary to live. There were many unemployed people, which the government had to feed daily."

    "Roman society is often represented as one of social extremes - with the wealth, power and opulence of an emperor existing alongside the poverty"


    Obama and Michelle live like royalty while so many have suffered so much under his rule.


    The Roman Empire - CDA's World History Wiki
    Sure it seems familiar. With every other empire and nation that ever existed.

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    Re: The fall of Rome equals US today?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoC_T View Post
    Sure it seems familiar. With every other empire and nation that ever existed.
    Yes every other empire that FELL.

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    Re: The fall of Rome equals US today?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Yes every other empire that FELL.
    Along with sovereign nations that have yet to do so. The US included.

    Inequality doesn't necessarily precipitate collapse.

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    Re: The fall of Rome equals US today?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Does any of this seem vaguely familiar?


    "Society and Culture
    By this time social classes in Rome were very different, the rich living extravagantly while the poor had not even the necessary to live. There were many unemployed people, which the government had to feed daily."

    "Roman society is often represented as one of social extremes - with the wealth, power and opulence of an emperor existing alongside the poverty"


    The Roman Empire - CDA's World History Wiki
    There have always been poor people and rich people.

    Today however, the poorest american is wealthier than the wealthiest emperor of Rome of all time. And I'm not even joking.

    Giving food to people was a common way to earn popularity and keep the peace. This was done because the Romans had a top notch agricultural system, best of it's time, and could produce a lot of food. Irrigation was top notch, etc. The fact that there is abundance is not sign of "collapse", it's a sign that things are going well and of progress and prosperity. Yes, politicians used that prosperity to garner votes and popularity but that's not to say that abundence in itself is wrong.
    Jesus Christ man. The Church, after it became established, did a lot of charity in the Roman Empire.

    Rome fell due to a lot of factors. Health was one -> as many said, lead poisoning was a serious thing. Romans were smart but it would be centuries after that people found the properties of lead, scientifically. The next thing was the separation between east and west. It was just the western roman empire that collapsed. The other was that there were too many enemies on too many frontiers. The next thing was tribalization of the army if you will. Powerful generals that lead large armies would earn the loyalty of those armies and then they'd make a civil war to become emperors. This was because the military stopped being made just by romans with roman values, but also of people who weren't fully romanized yet and they didn't have any loyalty to the notion of republic. They were loyal to the "strongman" in charge and to whom paid them.

    So. Lead poisoning. multiple enemies. Splitted empire. Fractured military. Barbarian invasions. Religious turmoil -> Christianity became the norm but not everyone in the empire wanted to be a Christian. Court intrigues.
    The only way abundence played into this is because abundence made the Romans targets. That's it.

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