View Poll Results: Re the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny:

Voters
23. You may not vote on this poll
  • They are as valid today as they ever were.

    4 17.39%
  • One is still valid; one isn't and I'll explain in my post.

    3 13.04%
  • They need to be dumped in the dustbin of history.

    7 30.43%
  • Never heard of them.

    0 0%
  • We need a new doctrine and I have suggested one.

    6 26.09%
  • Other and I'll explain in my post.

    3 13.04%
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Thread: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

  1. #41
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Our failures in Afghanistan are from an unwillingness to understand how their society works at a grassroots level. It's a gangster culture where the idea of turning against your tribe on behalf of abstract ideas like justice or nationhood is like asking career criminals to turn on their colleagues because its the right thing to do. They watch and evaluate America's actions, and most of what they see confirms that we are just like them, and therefore can't be trusted more so than any other rival tribe. They bring us into their confederate politics, where they use us where it is convenient and betray us where it is expedient.

    In the same way gangsters watch cops and decide cops are just like them. The perception is not perfectly accurate, but there's enough there to leave room for doubt. That doubt undermines any attempt at cultural outreach.
    Of course the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny are both concepts in which we would expect to control or reform another country. I don't know whether that extends into expecting them to become like us, though of course there would be some influence there. The Philippines, for instance, became very Americanized during the time they were an American colony while retaining much of their former culture. Here in the southwest, we folks who once were part of Mexico and Spain still enjoy exhibiting that part of the culture as our own in our food, architecture, amenities, and to some extent dress, but yet we are unmistakably Americans first.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #42
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Let's look at an example of the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny that is still in effect:

    Cuba.

    Does anybody remember WHY we have a trade embargo with Cuba and disallow any imports from there and allow only humanitarian exports (food and medicine) from here to there? It is purely because Cuba is a communist country with serious human rights issues and it refuses to democratize.

    The Cuban embargo is enforced mainly with six statutes: the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917, the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961, the Cuba Assets Control Regulations of 1963, the Cuban Democracy Act of 1992, the Helms–Burton Act of 1996, and the Trade Sanctions Reform and Export Enhancement Act of 2000. And there doesn't seem to be any serious efforts from anybody in the current Congress or Administration to relax the embargo and Americans of Cuban origins don't want to relax them.

    How does something like that play into our views of the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #43
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I for one am tired of being the world's policeman. But I'm always torn. Do we just sit back, close our eyes, and pretend a genocide isn't happening when we have the military might to stop it? Isn't it in our national interest to not allow a brutal and self-serving tyrant to tie up a large majority of the world's petroleum supplies? And what good are treaties if they are not honored when our allies get into trouble?

    So I checked the option that we need a new doctrine to clear up the conflicting issues. But I honestly don't know yet how to write one. I am hoping this discussion will help sort out my own personal conflicts so I will know better what to support.
    I don't believe that the USA should have the role as the world's police, even in our hemisphere. We (and every other nation) should only be defending ourselves and intervening in other conflicts when it is likely to prevent or stop a genocidal situation. No nation has a right to take military or other violent or illegal action for the purpose of acquiring resources. No nation has a complete monopoly on any resource for which there is no alternative AFAIK.

    The extent to which we should defend our allies is the trickiest question. We have had a special obligation to protect Germany and Japan because we disarmed them at the end of WWII. I think the time is here to trust them with their own military again since they have been well behaved since WWII. Supporting allies in conflicts should only be done in genocidal situations and possibly also when there is a clearly illegal occupation or massive attack. Whether to support an ally in the event of attack or occupation should be very carefully considered and only done with the approval of congress. If it was up to me, going to war would require a two thirds vote.

    Manifest Destiny and American Exceptionalism were never legitimate concepts and definitely should not be used to excuse any action in the future.

  4. #44
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    I don't believe that the USA should have the role as the world's police, even in our hemisphere. We (and every other nation) should only be defending ourselves and intervening in other conflicts when it is likely to prevent or stop a genocidal situation. No nation has a right to take military or other violent or illegal action for the purpose of acquiring resources. No nation has a complete monopoly on any resource for which there is no alternative AFAIK.

    The extent to which we should defend our allies is the trickiest question. We have had a special obligation to protect Germany and Japan because we disarmed them at the end of WWII. I think the time is here to trust them with their own military again since they have been well behaved since WWII. Supporting allies in conflicts should only be done in genocidal situations and possibly also when there is a clearly illegal occupation or massive attack. Whether to support an ally in the event of attack or occupation should be very carefully considered and only done with the approval of congress. If it was up to me, going to war would require a two thirds vote.

    Manifest Destiny and American Exceptionalism were never legitimate concepts and definitely should not be used to excuse any action in the future.
    Good post. So what should we do re Cuba?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Good post. So what should we do re Cuba?
    Negotiate an end to the embargo in exchange for some human rights improvements. Engage and influence usually works better than isolate, vilify and/or ignore.

  6. #46
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Let's look at an example of the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny that is still in effect:

    Cuba.

    Does anybody remember WHY we have a trade embargo with Cuba and disallow any imports from there and allow only humanitarian exports (food and medicine) from here to there? It is purely because Cuba is a communist country with serious human rights issues and it refuses to democratize.

    The Cuban embargo is enforced mainly with six statutes: the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917, the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961, the Cuba Assets Control Regulations of 1963, the Cuban Democracy Act of 1992, the Helms–Burton Act of 1996, and the Trade Sanctions Reform and Export Enhancement Act of 2000. And there doesn't seem to be any serious efforts from anybody in the current Congress or Administration to relax the embargo and Americans of Cuban origins don't want to relax them.

    How does something like that play into our views of the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny?
    I cannot understand why after all these years, it doesn't help the USA or Cuba as they are natural trading partners ( by geography)
    Americans of Cuban origins don't want to relax them
    true, the "old guard" who fled from Castro are about the only ones still hanging on to the notion

  7. #47
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Negotiate an end to the embargo in exchange for some human rights improvements. Engage and influence usually works better than isolate, vilify and/or ignore.
    Do you think that hasn't been tried in the more than 50 years the embargo has been in place?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  8. #48
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    The world needs a new one. No more a lot of bases around the world with a lot of soldiers. There will always be a need for the role of peace keeper and police man but not for just the US. There has to be a better and cheaper way to achieve the same. There will have to be strategic bases in the world from which the US and it's allies can operate if needed. There is no need for large tank armies. There are no large tank enemies to conquer anymore IMHO.

    The US has the hardware for the large part, the cruise missiles, drones, attack helicopters, submarines, aircraft carriers as well as great specialized troops. The allies of the US have to provide patriot missile protection if needed, F16 planes, smaller frigates for smaller protection details (like the anti-pirate mission). On top of that they have to provide fast response units to aid/fight alongside the US in hot spots around the world. Quick and fast intervention and then pulling out to hand over to a local UN mission (like in Africa). The allies of the US have to work with the US to make their armed forces as complementary as possible to the US effort.

    And even more important, the allies have to be able to handle certain missions themselves, without US aid. So the big countries like the UK and France will have to have their own stockpile of hardware like submarines, aircraft carriers, drones and cruise missiles so that they can do missions without costing the US a lot of money/effort. Other allies will have to buy the plane power the new fast response nato will need. Countries like Germany, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Belgium and others will have to make sure the non-US response contingent will have enough fighter planes, bomber planes and attack helicopters to be effective. Other countries like Sweden, Norway, Turkey, Austria, etc. will have to make sure they have enough light and heavy tanks that can be shipped to a war zone if needed. But as it is a quick response army these tanks will not be needed often because cruise missiles, fighter planes, drones and attack helicopters can do that almost as effective as tanks can.

    There will need to be a lot more cooperation and than the US and other countries can save money and still be effective around the world if needed. The US will still have the national reserve which can receive excess US military material like tanks for regular training missions so that they will be prepared if there will ever be the need for a big armed invasion somewhere in the world. But with the advancing hardware the US and other armies are buying I doubt this will be necessary.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Do you think that hasn't been tried in the more than 50 years the embargo has been in place?
    The Cuban refugees, who are a significant voting block in Florida, have strongly opposed reconciliation with Cuba. Apparently they are powerful enough that all attempts to warm up relations with Cuba have failed. I'm guessing they want to get their property back from Cuba, which I doubt will ever happen. It may take that generation of refugees dying off for any significant progress to be made.

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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    The world needs a new one. No more a lot of bases around the world with a lot of soldiers. There will always be a need for the role of peace keeper and police man but not for just the US. .....

    It seems that the fear of Russia, China or someone else taking over the police role is one of the motivations for the USA to staying in that role.

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