View Poll Results: Re the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny:

Voters
23. You may not vote on this poll
  • They are as valid today as they ever were.

    4 17.39%
  • One is still valid; one isn't and I'll explain in my post.

    3 13.04%
  • They need to be dumped in the dustbin of history.

    7 30.43%
  • Never heard of them.

    0 0%
  • We need a new doctrine and I have suggested one.

    6 26.09%
  • Other and I'll explain in my post.

    3 13.04%
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Thread: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

  1. #31
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Basten View Post
    Manifest Destiny is over with, that was for another time. Same with the Monroe Doctrine, I'd say.

    Both have served their purposes.
    Monroe Doctrine maybe apply a bit to the illegal alien issue we have now. Some consider it a movement to retake land.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  2. #32
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Monroe Doctrine maybe apply a bit to the illegal alien issue we have now. Some consider it a movement to retake land.
    The principle would be much the same but the Monroe Doctrine was intended to warn folks who would meddle with any nations within the North and South American continents. And since Mexico is part of North America, the Monroe Doctrine wouldn't technically apply. I suppose Manifest Destiny could apply though if we ever decided to invade Mexico and force it to install a government that would effectively deal with the drug cartels and illegal emigration.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #33
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I don't think that is very realistic. Without having at least some bases around the world, it makes it very difficult for us to intervene in the case of genocide if necessary.
    The 82'nd Airborne can parachute in to almost anywhere and secure just about any airfield - especially in a country like Rwanda. Besides, Marine MEU's only comprise a few thousand troops.
    Either way, you are going to have to fly in Army units to really put serious boots on the ground fast. They can fly in from almost anywhere (with re-fuelling)...Germany OR America.
    No need to forward base them.

  4. #34
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    But then why is it so inconsistent? Does it make sense to bomb Lybia, effectively achieve regime change, send in our own advisors, and protect a very shaky government with our own military, while not intervening with anything more than empty rhetoric when the same unheavals are going on in Syria, Egypt, Ukraine etc.?

    We didn't win the ideological war in Iraq and we expended all that horrendous blood and treasure there and have absolutely nothing to show for it. It appears we will soon be leaving Afghanistan which the Taliban will almost certainly reclaim just as soon as we vacate the premises, and we'll have nothing at all to show for the twelve years of expending precious blood and treasure.

    The USA has not had the will to win a war since 1945. We still fight them, but never to win anymore. At some point we become war weary and just stop fighting them. In some cases we acquire a tentative friend in the process such as South Korea or Kosovo, etc. But is it worth it?

    Who should pick and choose which 'instabilities' are in our national interest and/or should be our business? What criteria should they use?
    Of course the actions of societies are or will appear inconsistent, which is not to say that it consistency would not seem preferable. But no two situations are the same and even the amount of available treasure can make policy restrictions seem inconsistent to the viewer.

    This is especially true now in a period in which the US seems to have decided to force it allies to shoulder more weight in international security. This goes back to the Bush I administration, when the analysis began to point out the necessity. We are talking of a huge change in the international architecture here and must keep in mind that it is very difficult to keep a country as large as that of the US on track over multiple administrations of changing political parties.

  5. #35
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Of course the actions of societies are or will appear inconsistent, which is not to say that it consistency would not seem preferable. But no two situations are the same and even the amount of available treasure can make policy restrictions seem inconsistent to the viewer.

    This is especially true now in a period in which the US seems to have decided to force it allies to shoulder more weight in international security. This goes back to the Bush I administration, when the analysis began to point out the necessity. We are talking of a huge change in the international architecture here and must keep in mind that it is very difficult to keep a country as large as that of the US on track over multiple administrations of changing political parties.
    Perhaps. But many other nations don't spend a whopping big amount on their military because they don't have to. They know if they get in trouble, they can count on our military to come to the rescue. And somehow that just doesn't seem the way things should be.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  6. #36
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Monroe Doctrine maybe apply a bit to the illegal alien issue we have now. Some consider it a movement to retake land.
    How though?

    Those people want to move here and become one of us. I don't support illegal immigrants' actions, but they are hardly trying to retake land. That's a strange lens to see it through.
    "We have more responsibility than power, I think. The newspaper can create great controversies, stir up arguments within the community or discussion, can throw light on injustices....just as it can do the opposite. It can hide things and be a great power for evil." -- Rupert Murdoch, 1968

  7. #37
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Basten View Post
    How though?

    Those people want to move here and become one of us. I don't support illegal immigrants' actions, but they are hardly trying to retake land. That's a strange lens to see it through.
    It's not a strange lens if you understand the attitude of some, and they are also not immigrants by definition.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  8. #38
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Basten View Post
    How though?

    Those people want to move here and become one of us. I don't support illegal immigrants' actions, but they are hardly trying to retake land. That's a strange lens to see it through.
    As with all immigrants from everywhere, those who wish to move here and assimilate into the American culture and be Americans are welcome. They will of course blend in their own unique flavor with the whole and that enriches us all.

    Those who want to move here and change our culture into what they left in their old countries, who want us to accommodate their old culture, their language, their religion, their laws or whatever, not so much. There are elements of the more militant La Raza, for instance, that would like for Mexico to regain U.S. territory and land it lost or gave up long ago.

    I'm sure in former times, before we became so fricking politically correct, some actions by illegal immigrants, Mexican and others, coming across our southern borders and most especially by the Mexican drug cartels, could be sufficient reason for military retaliation. And if we use a blended interpretation of the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny, it could be seen as justification for forcibly annexing Mexico. That, I believe, would be the best possible thing that could happen to Mexico as it is now, but of course it isn't going to happen. And I doubt many, if any, of us would approve of such an action.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #39
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    As with all immigrants from everywhere, those who wish to move here and assimilate into the American culture and be Americans are welcome. They will of course blend in their own unique flavor with the whole and that enriches us all.

    Those who want to move here and change our culture into what they left in their old countries, who want us to accommodate their old culture, their language, their religion, their laws or whatever, not so much. There are elements of the more militant La Raza, for instance, that would like for Mexico to regain U.S. territory and land it lost or gave up long ago.
    Those types are definitely the problematic kind, but they are hardly common.

    @bolded: Surprised there's anyone like that. That's a special kind of nonsense.

    And I doubt many, if any, of us would approve of such an action.
    I definitely wouldn't. That's taking it too far by a long shot.


    And the thing with the cartels is that Americans are their main customer. Our drug users drive their profits and activities without having to deal with the cartel violence that plagues the lives of Mexicans in certain regions of their nation. Makes for an interesting situation. At least El Chapo got caught -- though the very same spell a lot of trouble for what will happen with his would be successors in Mexico.
    "We have more responsibility than power, I think. The newspaper can create great controversies, stir up arguments within the community or discussion, can throw light on injustices....just as it can do the opposite. It can hide things and be a great power for evil." -- Rupert Murdoch, 1968

  10. #40
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    Re: The Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: Valid or Moot?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    It is not a question of will to win, its ability. We can easily defeat any non-nuclear nation on earth. The problem is that you cannot impose democracy at the barrel of a gun. Ultimately our experience in Afghanistan is no different than the former Soviet Unions. There are those that argue we should take the gloves off, well, I can assure you that the Soviet Union did and were extremely brutal in repressing extremists in Afghanistan yet in the end it got them nothing to show for it.
    Our failures in Afghanistan are from an unwillingness to understand how their society works at a grassroots level. It's a gangster culture where the idea of turning against your tribe on behalf of abstract ideas like justice or nationhood is like asking career criminals to turn on their colleagues because its the right thing to do. They watch and evaluate America's actions, and most of what they see confirms that we are just like them, and therefore can't be trusted more so than any other rival tribe. They bring us into their confederate politics, where they use us where it is convenient and betray us where it is expedient.

    In the same way gangsters watch cops and decide cops are just like them. The perception is not perfectly accurate, but there's enough there to leave room for doubt. That doubt undermines any attempt at cultural outreach.

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