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How We Raise Our Daughters - 21st Century [W:87,158,368]

We should be raising our daughters


  • Total voters
    86
There's no age restriction to yoga pants....and if you're looking at 15 year olds..... :shock:

WTH is wrong with looking at 15 year girls? They're a sight prettier than 35 year old women. He's not talking about torturing himself by talking to them.
 
I knew many great guys that I went to school with that never got their due attention from girls simply because they were not jocks. I would teach my daughter to put little value in popularity. To see value in personality over popularity.

Would you teach your sons to be attracted to fat girls?
 
But if you look at Gipper's posts, he was grabbing binoculars to go look at underdressed girls going to high school proms -that was definitely about deliberately checking out under-age girls, not accidentally drooling after one and then realizing they were under-age.

People would have to be daft to believe that a girl going to her high school prom, thus either 17 or 18, isn't near the pinnacle of her life's attractiveness.

The underage criterion here is bogus and artificial. The real dividing line is pubescence. A 17/18 year old girl is an attractive woman who will catch the attention of most every man. What part of her physique do you imagine is distasteful to men?
 
I have attended 7 schools across the nation due to my mom being military. I have run into smart jocks, but from my experiance they are the exception more than the rule.

Is an American jock simply a fit person on the sports teams in secondary school? From what I've seen of U.S. TV/film it always seems to refer to someone who's brainless and a bully. But it's actually common, at least here in Denmark, for the captain of the sports team to be intellectual, at least somewhat. Seems that fit kids here work a lot harder academically in the U.S. from what I've seen. In my school, almost all of the top academic students played at least a sport and most more than one.
 
Is an American jock simply a fit person on the sports teams in secondary school? From what I've seen of U.S. TV/film it always seems to refer to someone who's brainless and a bully. But it's actually common, at least here in Denmark, for the captain of the sports team to be intellectual, at least somewhat. Seems that fit kids here work a lot harder academically in the U.S. from what I've seen. In my school, almost all of the top academic students played at least a sport and most more than one.

Much of what you see here, is based on Americans watching movies and imagining it to be reality. The majority of people considered "Jocks" in this country are also relatively competent students and probably pretty nice guys. As seems par for U.S media however...the only ones that make the news (outside local), are the few who act stupidly.
 
So looking at teenaged girls is wrong. Glad I checked this thread out.
 
WTH is wrong with looking at 15 year girls? They're a sight prettier than 35 year old women. He's not talking about torturing himself by talking to them.

OMG. . Please shut the fvck up. Do you HAVE 15 year old daughters you piece of ****??
 
So looking at teenaged girls is wrong. Glad I checked this thread out.

You know what they're talking about. 15 year Olds aren't meat for grown ass men.
Riverdad should have his man card revoked.
 
OMG. . Please shut the fvck up. Do you HAVE 15 year old daughters you piece of ****??

Thank you for that kind invitation, but I regret to inform you that I cannot comply. Whether I have 15 year old daughters is immaterial to how the world works. My position doesn't change because I like or don't like how reality works. For god's sakes, do you take me to be a liberal who lives in a reality of my own construction?
 
You know what they're talking about. 15 year Olds aren't meat for grown ass men.
Riverdad should have his man card revoked.

I never said touch, or that they were "for" us.

Chocolate cake and a Ferrari ain't for me either, but I damn sure will take a look.
 
You know what they're talking about. 15 year Olds aren't meat for grown ass men.
Riverdad should have his man card revoked.

I don't believe that Gipper made any reference to 15 year olds being "meat for grown ass men." That's an invention of your own dirty mind.
 
I don't believe that Gipper made any reference to 15 year olds being "meat for grown ass men." That's an invention of your own dirty mind.

My dirty mind involves ADULTS . Not children. Thanks very much.
 
My dirty mind involves ADULTS . Not children. Thanks very much.

Are artistic nudes painted so as to appeal to dirty minds? Can the female form be appreciated without thinking "I'm going to tap that ass."
 
Moderator's Warning:
Let's step back and take it down a notch folks. Civility, topical, all that groovy stuff.
 
Are artistic nudes painted so as to appeal to dirty minds? Can the female form be appreciated without thinking "I'm going to tap that ass."

Not by me.

Really.

Young teenage...underage cheeks hanging out of shorts is art.

Right.

Give me a fvcking break.
 
Really.

Young teenage...underage cheeks hanging out of shorts is art.

Right.

Give me a fvcking break.

Thanks to Maplethorpe, anything can be considered art. You can smear a baby's diaper against a wall and they'll call it "masterpiece".
 
Would you teach your sons to be attracted to fat girls?

Would you encourage a girl to find heavier men attractive? Most people don't yet women end up with men who are overweight quite often. And some of us chubbier ladies have no problem attracting eyes and mates. In fact (thinking of the next statement I quoted) I'd say that my attractive peak wasn't governed by age, but body weight. When I was actually 20-30 lbs overweight (as opposed to the 40 lbs I am now). I was, what, 130 - 140 lbs, 25-33.

I had more males show interest, ask me out - even knowing I was married and had children.

Weight is not an issue - the concept that 'thin is the only attractive' is antiquated, brought on by Edwardian corsetry and Victorian age beliefs.

People would have to be daft to believe that a girl going to her high school prom, thus either 17 or 18, isn't near the pinnacle of her life's attractiveness.

The underage criterion here is bogus and artificial. The real dividing line is pubescence. A 17/18 year old girl is an attractive woman who will catch the attention of most every man. What part of her physique do you imagine is distasteful to men?

Beauty is in the eye.

I don't look at 17/18 year old boys and think they're attractive. Is it wrong if other women do? No. (people actually love this concept in erotica: the cougar) But it's not a universal standard.

Consider my previous statement about weight - it's silly to think I was at my 'peak attractiveness' when I was in my late teens. Highly untrue, as it is for many females who are still developing, physically, and struggling with issues of physical awkwardness and psychological self acceptance, etc.

Now - does that mean some guys (like you for example) don't think that way? No. But it's not a universal standard.

Are artistic nudes painted so as to appeal to dirty minds? Can the female form be appreciated without thinking "I'm going to tap that ass."

Yeah, sure - and same with the male form.
 
Would you encourage a girl to find heavier men attractive?

Capster78 wrote "I would teach my daughter to put little value in popularity. To see value in personality over popularity."

I'm reading this comment as though he believes that girls can be taught to change what appeals to them, that their tastes in boys/men are learned. If this is his belief, then can he teach his sons to find fat girls attractive?

This issue of what young girls find attractive in young boys actually ties into what Goshin and I and others have been stating - respect. A popular boy is a boy who is respected by other boys and girls, but mostly boys. That male respect hierarchy develops early. The popular young boy is a boy who is higher on the pecking order. Girls find popular boys attractive. Women find powerful men attractive. Women find highly respected men attractive.

To answer your question, no I wouldn't encourage a girl, or my daughters, to find a heavier man attractive because I don't think that I can shape their natures and change their tastes. What I will do though is shape their social networks as best as I can to close them off to some types of boys and broaden their exposure to other types of young boys. That's within my control.

Most people don't yet women end up with men who are overweight quite often.

And men end up with women who aren't young nor beautiful.

Men seek different things in women than women seek in men. Women will pair up with an overweight man if he has other qualities which appeal to her more than his weight displeases her.

Men are more conscious of female beauty, youth, body shape than women are of men. Women are more conscious of male status, respect and personality than men are of women. It's women who size men up by their status, their careers, their cars. Men aren't rejecting women because they don't drive the right car or because the woman is in a lower paid career. It's not that the physical objects are important, it's that they're quick and easy signal markers. Women can more easily display their assets compared to men.

Weight is not an issue - the concept that 'thin is the only attractive' is antiquated, brought on by Edwardian corsetry and Victorian age beliefs.

And guys who like to walk around in Star Trek uniforms is not an issue for women, right? Women love nerdy nerds just as much as they love Daniel Craig.

Nice guys are to young women like fat girls are to young men.

I don't look at 17/18 year old boys and think they're attractive.

You're a woman, so what stature does a 18 year old boy hold that you'd find attractive? I don't expect women to judge men by the same standard that men judge women. Similarly, Meg Whitman holds absolutely no appeal to me. She's a billionaire, was a powerful CEO of eBay. Her status does zilch for me. Women though seem to be very attracted to powerful and respected men.

Consider my previous statement about weight - it's silly to think I was at my 'peak attractiveness' when I was in my late teens. Highly untrue, as it is for many females who are still developing, physically, and struggling with issues of physical awkwardness and psychological self acceptance, etc.

The exceptions prove the rule.

Look around at the world. Do you see a lot of men paying to watch Granny Porn? Do you see many 45 year old, mother of 6 women, who are exotic dancers? What you see is men being attracted to very young women, even the old codgers aren't focusing their desire on women the same age, which is why we don't really have big markets for granny porn. 70 year old men still love looking at 20 year old girls.
 
Capster78 wrote "I would teach my daughter to put little value in popularity. To see value in personality over popularity."

I'm reading this comment as though he believes that girls can be taught to change what appeals to them, that their tastes in boys/men are learned. If this is his belief, then can he teach his sons to find fat girls attractive?

This issue of what young girls find attractive in young boys actually ties into what Goshin and I and others have been stating - respect. A popular boy is a boy who is respected by other boys and girls, but mostly boys. That male respect hierarchy develops early. The popular young boy is a boy who is higher on the pecking order. Girls find popular boys attractive. Women find powerful men attractive. Women find highly respected men attractive.

To answer your question, no I wouldn't encourage a girl, or my daughters, to find a heavier man attractive because I don't think that I can shape their natures and change their tastes. What I will do though is shape their social networks as best as I can to close them off to some types of boys and broaden their exposure to other types of young boys. That's within my control.



And men end up with women who aren't young nor beautiful.

Men seek different things in women than women seek in men. Women will pair up with an overweight man if he has other qualities which appeal to her more than his weight displeases her.

Men are more conscious of female beauty, youth, body shape than women are of men. Women are more conscious of male status, respect and personality than men are of women. It's women who size men up by their status, their careers, their cars. Men aren't rejecting women because they don't drive the right car or because the woman is in a lower paid career. It's not that the physical objects are important, it's that they're quick and easy signal markers. Women can more easily display their assets compared to men.



And guys who like to walk around in Star Trek uniforms is not an issue for women, right? Women love nerdy nerds just as much as they love Daniel Craig.

Nice guys are to young women like fat girls are to young men.


You're a woman, so what stature does a 18 year old boy hold that you'd find attractive? I don't expect women to judge men by the same standard that men judge women. Similarly, Meg Whitman holds absolutely no appeal to me. She's a billionaire, was a powerful CEO of eBay. Her status does zilch for me. Women though seem to be very attracted to powerful and respected men.



The exceptions prove the rule.

Look around at the world. Do you see a lot of men paying to watch Granny Porn? Do you see many 45 year old, mother of 6 women, who are exotic dancers? What you see is men being attracted to very young women, even the old codgers aren't focusing their desire on women the same age, which is why we don't really have big markets for granny porn. 70 year old men still love looking at 20 year old girls.

So all in all:
You're saying that men are drawn to women only in regard to the looks department. - You're talking about physical, eye-to-eye.
You're saying that women aren't drawn to men only in regard to the looks department. Instead: we hold interest in 'everything else'. - Talking about attraction to a person, mind to mind. (or status-to-status)

Did I read that right?

I just disagree that physical is the end-all be-all for men. Men are not superficial, shallow dolts who think their only their cocks. That might drive them when they're younger, but as they age they become less driven by only that.

I think men can appreciate physical beauty, but when it comes to relationships and love -- committing to someone for a lifetime, even when that youth is gone -- it is not what drives them.

Regarding the 18 year old male? Nothing is attractive unless I'm just judging, physically. And even physically: the average 18 year old male doesn't hold the physical features I'm most drawn to. There's a rough edge that comes with age. I just like older men. I always have.

I am not attracted to youth, perhaps I should say - physically or psychologically. So if a guy is in his 30's and baby face, there will just be no pull.

If you look at the qualities that come along with 'young girls' (late teens) I don't think it's the appearances that count. I think it's deeper than that. I think it's the appeal to the male psyche overall: is she independent or will she rely on him? Is she a novice in the bedroom or will he have to guide her and teach her how he'd enjoy things? Is she a virgin? (I think this is a huge pull for a lot of guys). Inexperienced, naive - like dependents, not women.

Women, as we age, become more self-reliant, more opinionated, and more vocal about varies issues.

THAT, I think, is what really plays into it for some guys. Young women allow men of all ages to play into the concept of masculinity as many men still see it.
 
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So all in all:
You're saying that men are drawn to women only in regard to the looks department. - You're talking about physical, eye-to-eye.
You're saying that women aren't drawn to men only in regard to the looks department. Instead: we hold interest in 'everything else'. - Talking about attraction to a person, mind to mind.

Did I read that right?

I just disagree that physical is the end-all be-all for men. Men are not superficial, shallow dolts who think their only their cocks. That might drive them when they're younger, but as they age they become less driven by only that.

I think men can appreciate physical beauty, but when it comes to relationships and love -- committing to someone for a lifetime, even when that youth is gone -- it is not what drives them.

Regarding the 18 year old male? Nothing is attractive unless I'm just judging, physically. And even physically: the average 18 year old male doesn't hold the physical features I'm most drawn to. There's a rough edge that comes with age. I just like older men. I always have.

I am not attracted to youth, perhaps I should say - physically or psychologically. So if a guy is in his 30's and baby face, there will just be no pull.

I wouldn't say that the physical aspects of attraction are all there is to for men, or that women ignore physical features entirely. It simply happens to be the case that, all things being equal, physical attributes are a lot more important to a man when selecting a sexual partner than they are for women.

It's hardwired into to us to the point where we don't even really see women as complete individuals. We see them as a collections of body parts instead, compartmentalized so as to be more easily assessed on a part-by-part basis.

Brain Sees Men as Whole, Women as Parts

Frankly, this makes perfect sense given what we tend to see in society at large.

Many women will gladly settle in with a man who might very well be considered to be physically unattractive, or even ugly, if he can bring something else to the table; power, wealth, maturity, an exceptionally confident and forceful personality, etca. Barring abject desperation, the same simply cannot be said of most men.

While I certainly agree that, especially when looking for a long term relationship, other factors apply for men as well as women. There usually has to be some physical spark present to draw our attention in the first place.

We're looking for physical markers of fertility and health first and foremost. When compared with older women, the younger variety simply happen to possess them both in abundance, more often than not. :shrug:

If you look at the qualities that come along with 'young girls' (late teens) I don't think it's the appearances that count. I think it's deeper than that. I think it's the appeal to the male psyche overall: is she independent or will she rely on him? Is she a novice in the bedroom or will he have to guide her and teach her how he'd enjoy things? Is she a virgin? (I think this is a huge pull for a lot of guys). Inexperienced, naive - like dependents, not women.

Women, as we age, become more self-reliant, more opinionated, and more vocal about varies issues.

THAT, I think, is what really plays into it for some guys. Young women allow men of all ages to play into the concept of masculinity as many men still see it.

That might possibly be the case when talking about men who make a deliberate point of seeking out younger women on a pathological basis.

However, that has little to do with the innate physical attraction men tend to feel towards young women.
 
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So all in all:
You're saying that men are drawn to women only in regard to the looks department. - You're talking about physical, eye-to-eye.
You're saying that women aren't drawn to men only in regard to the looks department. Instead: we hold interest in 'everything else'. - Talking about attraction to a person, mind to mind.

Did I read that right?

It's not an ONLY THIS AND NOTHING ELSE process. It's a matter of how much value is assigned to each.

Women are more attuned to male status than men are to women's status. This starts early and continues in life. Look back on the high school kids. The girls want the football star, the popular boy in school to be their boyfriend. The guys want to nail the cheerleader. The guys don't particularly care about the captain of the girls' basketball team or the girl who is school president.

Look even younger. Girls with their Justin Beiber pictures on the walls of their bedroom. They're focusing on the popular boy. Do you see your sons idolizing Selena Gomez and plastering their bedroom walls with her photos? I'd be surprised if you did. The girl being at the top of a pecking order holds way less appeal for boys than does the reverse for girls.

Men are not superficial, shallow dolts who think their only their cocks. That might drive them when they're younger, but as they age they become less driven by only that.

And similarly, women who chase after the bad boys and think that they can get them to commit and that they can change him, remake him, into a man devoted to her, change their focus as they age and then turn their attention to the loser guys who they overlooked when they were younger and who they now see make pretty good husband material.

Lookee here, The New York Times reports:

After midnight on a rainy night last week in Chapel Hill, N.C., a large group of sorority women at the University of North Carolina squeezed into the corner booth of a gritty basement bar. Bathed in a neon glow, they splashed beer from pitchers, traded jokes and belted out lyrics to a Taylor Swift heartache anthem thundering overhead. As a night out, it had everything — except guys.​

Poor little things. All dressed up and there's no guys around.

North Carolina, with a student body that is nearly 60 percent female, is just one of many large universities that at times feel eerily like women’s colleges. . .

Jayne Dallas, a senior studying advertising who was seated across the table, grumbled that the population of male undergraduates was even smaller when you looked at it as a dating pool. “Out of that 40 percent, there are maybe 20 percent that we would consider, and out of those 20, 10 have girlfriends, so all the girls are fighting over that other 10 percent,” she said.

So it's not a matter of there not being guys around, it's a matter of there not being "high value" guys around. Half the guys are written off and they're written off in an environment where there are 3 girls for every 2 guys.

Let's see how the guys see this issue. Some guys are very happy:

Several male students acknowledged that the math skewed pleasantly in their favor. “You don’t have to work that hard,” said Matt Garofalo, a senior at North Carolina. “You meet a girl at a late-night restaurant, she’s texting you the next day.”​

But some guys are still schlubs sitting on the outside:

Indeed, there are a fair number of Mr. Lonelyhearts on campus. “Even though there’s this huge imbalance between the sexes, it still doesn’t change the fact of guys sitting around, bemoaning their single status,” said Patrick Hooper, a Georgia senior. “It’s the same as high school, but the women are even more enchanting and beautiful.”

And perhaps still elusive. Many women eagerly hit the library on Saturday night. And most would prefer to go out with friends, rather than date a campus brute.​

Just like fat chicks bemoan their fate in life and cry about how wonderful their personalities are, these nice guys are also passed over and they moan and bitch about it. Sometimes they even write to advice columnists.

I think men can appreciate physical beauty, but when it comes to relationships and love -- committing to someone for a lifetime, even when that youth is gone -- it is not what drives them.

Exactly so. When a man appreciate the youthful beauty of an 18 year old, or even a 15 year old, girl, he's not thinking about her as relationship and marriage material. He's looking at women, all women, by their appearance. If a woman is beautiful and appealing, then a man enjoys looking at her. Period. His day has been brightened. When a woman daydreams about some male character in a Harlequin novel, then her day is brightened.

These are the first filters we use, but when we're looking for deeper relationships, then we have to go beyond the first filters and in some cases override them. The man would never seek out the fat girl but circumstance has brought them together or the girl would never want to have anything to do with that guy who wears his Starfleet uniform to the office on casual Fridays but circumstance has put them together and she discovers more about him and begins to find him appealing.

People go beyond their first filters when needed.

Regarding the 18 year old male? Nothing is attractive unless I'm just judging, physically. And even physically: the average 18 year old male doesn't hold the physical features I'm most drawn to. There's a rough edge that comes with age. I just like older men. I always have.

Young women start out life rich and young men start out life poor. Women lose their "wealth" as they age and men increase their "wealth" as they age. A 21 year old woman is generally more attractive to men than a 31 year old woman. A 31 year old man is generally more attractive to women than a 21 year old man.
 
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