How We Raise Our Daughters - 21st Century [W:87,158,368]

Tigger said:

I look at it this way.... Are we Better or Worse off TODAY than we were prior to the Women's Sufferage Movement gaining traction in the early part of the 20th Century? Technologically we are immensely superior, but socially and societally I would suggest that we are incalculably inferior to the society that existed prior to the Women's Sufferage and then Femistm movements of hte 20th Century.

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If by "we," you mean controlling MEN who are incapable of thinking beyond the 12th century where women and women's rights are concerned, obviously you and the rest of that regressive group aren't better off than you were prior to the Woman's Rights Movement which began in the 19th century. Sorry (not really), I have no sympathy for guys who would prefer than women be nothing more than unpaid house servants, cooks, laundresses, and baby makers.

However, women are much better off since we gained the right to attend college, enter the trades and professions so any woman could earn her own living, and of course to VOTE. That means that each woman can decide for herself what kind of life SHE wants to have, rather than have some arrogant male control freak making her life choices FOR her. I think it is safe to say that most women, myself included, do NOT want to spend their entire lives as some man's unpaid domestic servant.

Ocean007 said:

Yeah, I'm sure you do. It must be so hard for you, knowing women can and DO work in offices, even be the BOSSES in some of those offices. Too bad.

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The only real barrier it places in my way is removing certain opportunities for me to do business with otherwise wonderful companies that cannot maintain propriety in their midsts. They lose my business and I in some cases lose the ability to do business with otherwise wonderful companies. It cost me what would have otherwise been a very nice promotional opportunity in the company I work for now. Such is life. We move on and make the best of it.

Ocean007 said:

Even though you prefer that women be nothing more than slaves in the home, catering to a man's every stupid whim, you'll just have to deal with the fact that women AREN'T stuck in such a miserable existence for the rest of their lives. At least not in the United States, unless a woman has the worst luck in the world to end up married to a guy who is stuck in the 12th century or earlier where women are concerned. Thank goodness that will NEVER be me.

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Not slaves, but that point is probably not worth discussing, since your mind will no more be changed on how to view homemakers and housewives than mine will be. Of course you would suggest that a woman would have to be "unlucky" to end up in such a situation. The fact that you refer to it as a "miserable existance" speaks volumes. OF course you have to realize that when a woman chooses a Man's path, she has to accept the consequences as well. Consequences such as being treated like a man.... that means no Chivalrous gestures. No doors being held open. No holds barred when it comes to telling her exactly how poor the quality of her work is. No assistance with anything we wouldn't help another guy out with. You can't have your cake and eat it to. To be treated like a Lady, one must BE a Lady. If you choose not to BE a Lady, don't expect to get treated like one.

nota bene said:

At least you're honest, Tigger. There are other men who secretly chafe at being chaired/directed/led by a woman--not many, but some, and I think a few of them are secretly very angry.

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There's no reason not to be honest about it. Those who choose to accept immorality and impropriety without speaking out will get their due down the road, and are probably getting some of it in their relationships right now.

Ocean007 said:

Sorry (not really), I have no sympathy for guys who would prefer than women be nothing more than unpaid house servants, cooks, laundresses, and baby makers.

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Don't waste your emotional diarhea on me. We don't want your "sympathy". We just don't want you trying to tell our girlfriends, fieances, and wives how terribly you believe they are being treated when they CHOSE to live this lifestyle. We don't want you sticking your noses into our daughters lives and telling them that their parents are "abusing" them by teaching them traditional values.

Ocean007 said:

However, women are much better off since we gained the right to attend college, enter the trades and professions so any woman could earn her own living, and of course to VOTE. That means that each woman can decide for herself what kind of life SHE wants to have, rather than have some arrogant male control freak making her life choices FOR her. I think it is safe to say that most women, myself included, do NOT want to spend their entire lives as some man's unpaid domestic servant.

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Oh, yes. You are so much better off. You get to incur all the stresses and problems of being a man, and then you get to deal with all of the physiological, psychological, and emotional stresses and problems that come with being a woman. Sounds like the best of both worlds to me.

NOBODY should get to choose what they want to be in life, Ocean. Not Men. Not women. NOBODY. That was NEVER the intent for the human race, and until we accept that, we're just going to get further and further away from what we were intended to be.

Tigger said:

We've had all the same conversations. While she isn't 100% in agreement with me on how to raise a child, we're at probably 92-93% agreement. Then again you need to remember that she's Puerto Rican, has never held a real job, and didn't graduate high school. Her only real marketable talents are in homemaking. Nothing else.

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I'm sure that for you, the facts that your fiancee never graduated high school and has never held a real job were the chief attractions for you. She has my deepest condolences.

Ocean007 said:

I'm sure that for you, the facts that your fiancee never graduated high school and has never held a real job were the chief attractions for you. She has my deepest condolences.

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Those factors did weigh into my decision to pursue a relationship with her. Just as meeting women like you on a vast majority of my first dates in the last 25 years has ensured that in most cases there was never a second date.

Neither she nor I seek your approval, and you can save the emotional diarhea of your "condolances" for someone who cares.

RiverDad said:

Pack her in the car, drive to a local hospice, walk her into a room with two dying people. She can see the rich single woman, dying all alone and then look at the grandmother surrounded by her children and grandchildren who love her dearly and who will live on as a testament to her presence on this earth and will keep their love for this woman alive until their own dying dies.

Then ask my daughter which fate she prefers - to be alone with her money or her memories of being stuck in a lab working with cultures or with the people who enriched her life?

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And suppose your daughter tells you she would prefer to be the rich single woman who decided for HERSELF what kind of life she would live and what kind of friends SHE would choose? Hmmmm?

Hard Truth said:

Many women who thought that they were going to be housewives face a rude awakening when her husband leaves or other financial crisis requires her to have to find a job. These days everyone should have a marketable job skill and get some work experience before leaving the job market.

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Totally agree. Also, the husband could DIE unexpectedly, of cancer or some other life-threatening illness, which would also be devastating for a woman who has never had much of an education and has never held a paying job.

Women who place themselves in this position are in serious jeopardy economically if they don't complete at least high school and other post high-school education. Even if college isn't affordable, there is the option of trade schools, where one or more job skills/trades are taught. I think girls and young women do themselves a serious economic disservice by not completing high school and some form of trade school or college, then having a few years of solid job experience before getting married and having kids.

Ocean007 said:

Totally agree. Also, the husband could DIE unexpectedly, of cancer or some other life-threatening illness, which would also be devastating for a woman who has never had much of an education and has never held a paying job.

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That is what His and her families are for, Ocean.... to take care of her in the unfortunate circumstance where He is no longer in the picture.

Ocean007 said:

Women who place themselves in this position are in serious jeopardy economically if they don't complete at least high school and other post high-school education. Even if college isn't affordable, there is the option of trade schools, where one or more job skills/trades are taught. I think girls and young women do themselves a serious economic disservice by not completing high school and some form of trade school or college, then having a few years of solid job experience before getting married and having kids.

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So you are suggesting that young women who have no interest in joining the workforce expend their time and money on educational opportunities which many of them may not be suited for and they don't even want? That sounds pretty ridiculous to me. I went and got the education I needed for the career I had chosen. I didn't get a Bachelor's or Master's degree which I knew would be of no help to my career; so why would one expect someone who knows what they want to do with their life to spend years and thousands of dollars attaining experiences and training they have no use for?

Tigger said:

1. Oh, yes. You are so much better off. You get to incur all the stresses and problems of being a man, and then you get to deal with all of the physiological, psychological, and emotional stresses and problems that come with being a woman. Sounds like the best of both worlds to me.

2. NOBODY should get to choose what they want to be in life, Ocean. Not Men. Not women. NOBODY. That was NEVER the intent for the human race, and until we accept that, we're just going to get further and further away from what we were intended to be.

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1. YES, women ARE much better off now than we were two centuries ago. We can now attend college for higher education, enter the trades and professions to earn a living and be financially independent if we choose, and of course we can VOTE. Instead of being nothing more than unpaid house servants, cooks and baby makers, women can become well-trained and highly-paid professionals. Women are succeeding at many occupations, such as: doctor, lawyer, scientist, technician, engineer, mathematician, law enforcement official (police officer, federal law enforcement agent, etc.), military officer and other professions that afford women a good living. No doubt that infuriates you, that WOMEN can enjoy the same benefits of a high-paid career that previously were the privilege of men only. GOOD.

2. Luckily for all of us, YOU don't get to choose a life path for anyone but yourself. You certainly DON'T have the right or authority to make life choices for ME, and for that, I am very grateful.

FYI, doing well in a well-paid career path is one good reason why more women, myself included, prefer to remain single, without husband or children. Why should I or any other woman give up a great career that we enjoy and which pays us well to be treated as nothing more than a domestic slave and economic dependent in our own homes? No reason whatsoever, not in my book anyway. Even as a woman, my home is my "castle," and I ALONE rule it.

Personally, I would rather spend the rest of my life being a single, financially independent career woman, determining my own life choices, than spend it trapped in the nightmare of a relationship/marriage with a conservative/regressive guy who thinks he has the "right" to control every aspect of my life. Thank goodness I am FREE of that burden. Such a miserable kind of existence is the same thing as slavery. And slavery in any form sucks, no matter what you or anyone else says.

Ocean007 said:

1. YES, women ARE much better off now than we were two centuries ago. We can now attend college for higher education, enter the trades and professions to earn a living and be financially independent if we choose, and of course we can VOTE. Instead of being nothing more than unpaid house servants, cooks and baby makers, women can become well-trained and highly-paid professionals. Women are succeeding at many occupations, such as: doctor, lawyer, scientist, technician, engineer, mathematician, law enforcement official (police officer, federal law enforcement agent, etc.), military officer and other professions that afford women a good living. No doubt that infuriates you, that WOMEN can enjoy the same benefits of a high-paid career that previously were the privilege of men only. GOOD.

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Women have more options in life. That's indisputable. So do Men. More choices doesn't necessarily mean we're better off, Ocean. In fact, I would suggest the exact opposite is true; that the more options we have in life the LESS well off we are. More options means more opportunities to make the WRONG choice, for both Men and women.

Ocean007 said:

2. Luckily for all of us, YOU don't get to choose a life path for anyone but yourself. You certainly DON'T have the right or authority to make life choices for ME, and for that, I am very grateful.

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Where do you see me ever suggesting I had many choices about my path in life, Ocean? I was taught from an early age that my choices were extremely limited, and I'm quite glad I was taught that. It has helped immensely in the course of my life to understand that we really get very few choices in life and that you better make the right decisions on those few occasions or you're in for a heap of trouble on both this and the other side of Eternity.

Ocean007 said:

FYI, doing well in a well-paid career path is one good reason why more women, myself included, prefer to remain single, without husband or children. Why should I or any other woman give up a great career that we enjoy and which pays us well to be treated as nothing more than a domestic slave and economic dependent in our own homes? No reason whatsoever, not in my book anyway. Even as a woman, my home is my "castle," and I ALONE rule it.

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Many of you "career" women have no choice but to remain single, as no sane Man would get within 100 yards of a relationship with you. Life is not about fun, happiness, or enjoyment. It's not about what we WANT to do, but rather what we SHOULD do. Your home can be your castle to rule alone. I don't see any even halfway intelligent Man wanting to share it with you, or any other woman who thinks like you do.

Ocean007 said:

Personally, I would rather spend the rest of my life being a single, financially independent career woman, determining my own life choices, than spend it trapped in the nightmare of a relationship/marriage with a conservative/regressive guy who thinks he has the "right" to control every aspect of my life. Thank goodness I am FREE of that burden. Such a miserable kind of existence is the same thing as slavery. And slavery in any form sucks, no matter what you or anyone else says.

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Finally, something we can almost agree upon. I was truly prepared to spend my life single and unattached until my fiance came into my life. Thankfully she believes in the same things I do, or that would have been nothing more than another single-date and move on relationship. I would rather be DEAD than to spend a single minute living with or even around a woman like you, Ocean. That's not meant to be a personal attack but rather a commentary on my opinion of women who don't choose to accept their place in life.

We are all slaves in this world, Ocean. We always have been and we always will be. It's the reason we're here... to prove that we can live life the way it is supposed to be lived rather than the way we may think is right.

Ocean007 said:

No doubt that infuriates you, that WOMEN can enjoy the same benefits of a high-paid career that previously were the privilege of men only. GOOD.

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What infuriates a lot of men is women prancing around claiming that they're independent and then marrying government and still believing that they're independent and not dependent upon men.

2. Luckily for all of us, YOU don't get to choose a life path for anyone but yourself.

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But you get to vote and through the vote enslave men into supporting "independent" women who have married the government.

You certainly DON'T have the right or authority to make life choices for ME, and for that, I am very grateful.

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Women should take the medicine that you're dishing out here. As a group they are one of the largest supporters of Big Government and of income redistribution, but women who are married are way less supportive because they see how this female dependency on government actually harms their own family by ripping resources away from their children and sending those resources to "independent" women who don't rely on men.

Tigger said:

My fiance and I are well-matched both physically and philosophically. We come from different backgrounds but have very similar views of the world, relationships, and meet each other's needs/compliment each others strenghts and weaknesses. We get along incredibly well. In more than 2 years we've had a grand total of 3 serious arguements, all of which were worked out within a matter of two hours or less.

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Right and wrong...very black and white.

You are living together in the same domicile.....is that a chaste relationship until marriage?

RiverDad said:

What infuriates a lot of men is women prancing around claiming that they're independent and then marrying government and still believing that they're independent and not dependent upon men.

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All kinds of people do that. You have to get a kick out of it. It is also perdictable that women would support a bigger government and more wealth redistribution since they are more collectivist minded. These days women are trying to act all individualist, but very few of them hold up to it. I'm not blasting them for it or anything since it's really just in their nature.

Henrin said:

All kinds of people do that. You have to get a kick out of it. It is also perdictable that women would support a bigger government and more wealth redistribution since they are more collectivist minded. These days women are trying to act all individualist, but very few of them hold up to it. I'm not blasting them for it or anything since it's really just in their nature.

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It's the hypocrisy of it all that rankles though. "I am woman, hear me roar" and then they marry the government.

Tigger said:

I learned very early in life that Love is something that really doesn't exist. She got to wait about a decade longer before she truly learned the truth about the blackness of the human heart. We've both seen the lie that is "love", GottaGo and we no longer believe in it.

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Maybe for you. It's interesting that you think your own experience, that while not exclusive to you, applies to everyone.

cpwill said:

I think that it's obvious that girls should be raised differently - by and large, they are different. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have dreams open to them, but it doesn't mean that they are boys. Generally, boys need to be raised to know that they are and should be someone worthy of respect, where girls need to be raised to know that they are and should be someone worthy of love. I definitely intend to focus on the relevant area for my two boys and my little girl.

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And hence the start of women as doormats, women who stay in abusive situations struggling to be loved...because she's learned it's 'her fault' she's not worthy of love.

Tigger said:

OF course you have to realize that when a woman chooses a Man's path, she has to accept the consequences as well. Consequences such as being treated like a man.... that means no Chivalrous gestures. No doors being held open. No holds barred when it comes to telling her exactly how poor the quality of her work is. No assistance with anything we wouldn't help another guy out with. You can't have your cake and eat it to. To be treated like a Lady, one must BE a Lady. If you choose not to BE a Lady, don't expect to get treated like one.

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Um, we sure can have our cake and eat it too. I have a good career in 'town', ride and shoot like a man, work side by side with them on their farms/ranches or mine....then get all cleaned up and treated like a lady. Act like one too...like to cook and get dressed up (to a certain extent....not the little black dress and pearls type)...take care of people when they are in my home, etc.

And I am no exception in my social circle.....or among women where I work either...2 very different worlds...liberal and conservative.

RiverDad said:

It's the hypocrisy of it all that rankles though. "I am woman, hear me roar" and then they marry the government.

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Care to back up this absurd statement with some kind of explanation of what the hell you're trying to say?????????

Marry the government???????? WHAT????????

Do you have daughters???? (please please please tell me "no" please please please)

Lursa said:

Right and wrong...very black and white. You are living together in the same domicile.....is that a chaste relationship until marriage?

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Yes we are living together and no the relationship is no longer chaste. It was until we moved in together last April, sixteen months into our relationship. Remeber, we're not playing by "Christian" rules. We believe that sex is reserved for committed relationships. Not necessarily marriage but committed, monogamous, long-term relationships.

Lursa said:

Maybe for you. It's interesting that you think your own experience, that while not exclusive to you, applies to everyone.

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I have seen the true blackness in the human heart over the course of my life. A heart and a soul cannot be both dead and alive at the same time. You cannot have both love and hate in the same heart. I learned that a long time ago. Hatred is the stronger force, and the one I have embraced, as do almost all human beings

Lursa said:

Um, we sure can have our cake and eat it too. I have a good career in 'town', ride and shoot like a man, work side by side with them on their farms/ranches or mine....then get all cleaned up and treated like a lady. Act like one too...like to cook and get dressed up (to a certain extent....not the little black dress and pearls type)...take care of people when they are in my home, etc....

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LOL. I would suggest you don't have too many real Men in your 'town'. You're trying to live a double life, and no truly self-respecting Man would accept you as a woman. I come from a family where farming was the norm until a generation or two ago. Nowhere in that family did the women do most of the different types of work on the farm. Of course they did certain things, but most of the work was done by the Men.

50 Most Powerful Women in Business 2013 - Fortune Magazine

Some pretty big companies here:

IBM
Pepsi
DuPont
Lockheed Martin

Lursa said:

Maybe for you. It's interesting that you think your own experience, that while not exclusive to you, applies to everyone.

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It's pretty obvious why love doesn't exist for Tigger. If he treated women differently, they might, in turn, treat him differently.

You get what you give. :shrug:

Tigger said:

-- no truly self-respecting Man would accept you as a woman --

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I would suggest a truly self respecting man doesn't need to feel a sense of power over the woman in his life.

I think the term "self-respecting" is something you still have to learn about.

Superfly said:

It's pretty obvious why love doesn't exist for Tigger. If he treated women differently, they might, in turn, treat him differently. You get what you give.

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Love didn't exist for me long before "romantic love" was a potential option, Superfly. People are instinctively and innately self-centered creatures. It's what human beings are. We look out for what is in our own best interests. That's not only normal, but it makes perfect sense. Anything that places us in a position of vulnerability to others is not a natural or logical concept.

Infinite Chaos said:

I would suggest a truly self respecting man doesn't need to feel a sense of power over the woman in his life. I think the term "self-respecting" is something you still have to learn about.

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I would suggest that any Man who allows his own best interests to be subverted by an emotional attachment to ANYONE, but especially a woman is an idiot on multiple levels. Self-respect comes from knowing what one should do, and doing it. Any man who can allow himself to be over-ruled by someone who should be looking to him to make the decisions has no reason to respect himself or expect any Man to respect him.

Tigger said:

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I would suggest that any Man who allows his own best interests to be subverted by an emotional attachment to ANYONE, but especially a woman is an idiot on multiple levels. Self-respect comes from knowing what one should do, and doing it. Any man who can allow himself to be over-ruled by someone who should be looking to him to make the decisions has no reason to respect himself or expect any Man to respect him.

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I am quite happy to be counted amongst the majority of men who you see as "Idiots on multiple levels", and pity you the lonely and angry life you have decided upon. I am seldom "Over-ruled" but often reach compromise with the woman who has given me her life, as I have given mine to her.

I would recommend you re-evaluate your quest for respect from other men....because this current choice is failing terribly.

tecoyah said:

I would recommend you re-evaluate your quest for respect from other men....because this current choice is failing terribly.

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I do not seek Respect, Love, or anything else from anyone, tecoyah. I gave up on worrying how or what anyone felt about me a long time ago.