View Poll Results: We should be raising our daughters

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  • like it's the 1700's - dependent and submissive

    3 3.03%
  • as princesses

    6 6.06%
  • no different than how we raise our sons

    17 17.17%
  • to be independent and strong individuals

    66 66.67%
  • squirrel ......

    7 7.07%
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Thread: How We Raise Our Daughters - 21st Century [W:87,158,368]

  1. #371
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    Re: How We Raise Our Daughters - 21st Century [W:87,158,368]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Would you teach your sons to be attracted to fat girls?
    Would you encourage a girl to find heavier men attractive? Most people don't yet women end up with men who are overweight quite often. And some of us chubbier ladies have no problem attracting eyes and mates. In fact (thinking of the next statement I quoted) I'd say that my attractive peak wasn't governed by age, but body weight. When I was actually 20-30 lbs overweight (as opposed to the 40 lbs I am now). I was, what, 130 - 140 lbs, 25-33.

    I had more males show interest, ask me out - even knowing I was married and had children.

    Weight is not an issue - the concept that 'thin is the only attractive' is antiquated, brought on by Edwardian corsetry and Victorian age beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    People would have to be daft to believe that a girl going to her high school prom, thus either 17 or 18, isn't near the pinnacle of her life's attractiveness.

    The underage criterion here is bogus and artificial. The real dividing line is pubescence. A 17/18 year old girl is an attractive woman who will catch the attention of most every man. What part of her physique do you imagine is distasteful to men?
    Beauty is in the eye.

    I don't look at 17/18 year old boys and think they're attractive. Is it wrong if other women do? No. (people actually love this concept in erotica: the cougar) But it's not a universal standard.

    Consider my previous statement about weight - it's silly to think I was at my 'peak attractiveness' when I was in my late teens. Highly untrue, as it is for many females who are still developing, physically, and struggling with issues of physical awkwardness and psychological self acceptance, etc.

    Now - does that mean some guys (like you for example) don't think that way? No. But it's not a universal standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Are artistic nudes painted so as to appeal to dirty minds? Can the female form be appreciated without thinking "I'm going to tap that ass."
    Yeah, sure - and same with the male form.
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  2. #372
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    Re: How We Raise Our Daughters - 21st Century [W:87,158,368]

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Would you encourage a girl to find heavier men attractive?
    Capster78 wrote "I would teach my daughter to put little value in popularity. To see value in personality over popularity."

    I'm reading this comment as though he believes that girls can be taught to change what appeals to them, that their tastes in boys/men are learned. If this is his belief, then can he teach his sons to find fat girls attractive?

    This issue of what young girls find attractive in young boys actually ties into what Goshin and I and others have been stating - respect. A popular boy is a boy who is respected by other boys and girls, but mostly boys. That male respect hierarchy develops early. The popular young boy is a boy who is higher on the pecking order. Girls find popular boys attractive. Women find powerful men attractive. Women find highly respected men attractive.

    To answer your question, no I wouldn't encourage a girl, or my daughters, to find a heavier man attractive because I don't think that I can shape their natures and change their tastes. What I will do though is shape their social networks as best as I can to close them off to some types of boys and broaden their exposure to other types of young boys. That's within my control.

    Most people don't yet women end up with men who are overweight quite often.
    And men end up with women who aren't young nor beautiful.

    Men seek different things in women than women seek in men. Women will pair up with an overweight man if he has other qualities which appeal to her more than his weight displeases her.

    Men are more conscious of female beauty, youth, body shape than women are of men. Women are more conscious of male status, respect and personality than men are of women. It's women who size men up by their status, their careers, their cars. Men aren't rejecting women because they don't drive the right car or because the woman is in a lower paid career. It's not that the physical objects are important, it's that they're quick and easy signal markers. Women can more easily display their assets compared to men.

    Weight is not an issue - the concept that 'thin is the only attractive' is antiquated, brought on by Edwardian corsetry and Victorian age beliefs.
    And guys who like to walk around in Star Trek uniforms is not an issue for women, right? Women love nerdy nerds just as much as they love Daniel Craig.

    Nice guys are to young women like fat girls are to young men.

    I don't look at 17/18 year old boys and think they're attractive.
    You're a woman, so what stature does a 18 year old boy hold that you'd find attractive? I don't expect women to judge men by the same standard that men judge women. Similarly, Meg Whitman holds absolutely no appeal to me. She's a billionaire, was a powerful CEO of eBay. Her status does zilch for me. Women though seem to be very attracted to powerful and respected men.

    Consider my previous statement about weight - it's silly to think I was at my 'peak attractiveness' when I was in my late teens. Highly untrue, as it is for many females who are still developing, physically, and struggling with issues of physical awkwardness and psychological self acceptance, etc.
    The exceptions prove the rule.

    Look around at the world. Do you see a lot of men paying to watch Granny Porn? Do you see many 45 year old, mother of 6 women, who are exotic dancers? What you see is men being attracted to very young women, even the old codgers aren't focusing their desire on women the same age, which is why we don't really have big markets for granny porn. 70 year old men still love looking at 20 year old girls.

  3. #373
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    Re: How We Raise Our Daughters - 21st Century [W:87,158,368]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Capster78 wrote "I would teach my daughter to put little value in popularity. To see value in personality over popularity."

    I'm reading this comment as though he believes that girls can be taught to change what appeals to them, that their tastes in boys/men are learned. If this is his belief, then can he teach his sons to find fat girls attractive?

    This issue of what young girls find attractive in young boys actually ties into what Goshin and I and others have been stating - respect. A popular boy is a boy who is respected by other boys and girls, but mostly boys. That male respect hierarchy develops early. The popular young boy is a boy who is higher on the pecking order. Girls find popular boys attractive. Women find powerful men attractive. Women find highly respected men attractive.

    To answer your question, no I wouldn't encourage a girl, or my daughters, to find a heavier man attractive because I don't think that I can shape their natures and change their tastes. What I will do though is shape their social networks as best as I can to close them off to some types of boys and broaden their exposure to other types of young boys. That's within my control.



    And men end up with women who aren't young nor beautiful.

    Men seek different things in women than women seek in men. Women will pair up with an overweight man if he has other qualities which appeal to her more than his weight displeases her.

    Men are more conscious of female beauty, youth, body shape than women are of men. Women are more conscious of male status, respect and personality than men are of women. It's women who size men up by their status, their careers, their cars. Men aren't rejecting women because they don't drive the right car or because the woman is in a lower paid career. It's not that the physical objects are important, it's that they're quick and easy signal markers. Women can more easily display their assets compared to men.



    And guys who like to walk around in Star Trek uniforms is not an issue for women, right? Women love nerdy nerds just as much as they love Daniel Craig.

    Nice guys are to young women like fat girls are to young men.


    You're a woman, so what stature does a 18 year old boy hold that you'd find attractive? I don't expect women to judge men by the same standard that men judge women. Similarly, Meg Whitman holds absolutely no appeal to me. She's a billionaire, was a powerful CEO of eBay. Her status does zilch for me. Women though seem to be very attracted to powerful and respected men.



    The exceptions prove the rule.

    Look around at the world. Do you see a lot of men paying to watch Granny Porn? Do you see many 45 year old, mother of 6 women, who are exotic dancers? What you see is men being attracted to very young women, even the old codgers aren't focusing their desire on women the same age, which is why we don't really have big markets for granny porn. 70 year old men still love looking at 20 year old girls.
    So all in all:
    You're saying that men are drawn to women only in regard to the looks department. - You're talking about physical, eye-to-eye.
    You're saying that women aren't drawn to men only in regard to the looks department. Instead: we hold interest in 'everything else'. - Talking about attraction to a person, mind to mind. (or status-to-status)

    Did I read that right?

    I just disagree that physical is the end-all be-all for men. Men are not superficial, shallow dolts who think their only their cocks. That might drive them when they're younger, but as they age they become less driven by only that.

    I think men can appreciate physical beauty, but when it comes to relationships and love -- committing to someone for a lifetime, even when that youth is gone -- it is not what drives them.

    Regarding the 18 year old male? Nothing is attractive unless I'm just judging, physically. And even physically: the average 18 year old male doesn't hold the physical features I'm most drawn to. There's a rough edge that comes with age. I just like older men. I always have.

    I am not attracted to youth, perhaps I should say - physically or psychologically. So if a guy is in his 30's and baby face, there will just be no pull.

    If you look at the qualities that come along with 'young girls' (late teens) I don't think it's the appearances that count. I think it's deeper than that. I think it's the appeal to the male psyche overall: is she independent or will she rely on him? Is she a novice in the bedroom or will he have to guide her and teach her how he'd enjoy things? Is she a virgin? (I think this is a huge pull for a lot of guys). Inexperienced, naive - like dependents, not women.

    Women, as we age, become more self-reliant, more opinionated, and more vocal about varies issues.

    THAT, I think, is what really plays into it for some guys. Young women allow men of all ages to play into the concept of masculinity as many men still see it.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 03-23-14 at 06:01 PM.
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    Re: How We Raise Our Daughters - 21st Century [W:87,158,368]

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    So all in all:
    You're saying that men are drawn to women only in regard to the looks department. - You're talking about physical, eye-to-eye.
    You're saying that women aren't drawn to men only in regard to the looks department. Instead: we hold interest in 'everything else'. - Talking about attraction to a person, mind to mind.

    Did I read that right?

    I just disagree that physical is the end-all be-all for men. Men are not superficial, shallow dolts who think their only their cocks. That might drive them when they're younger, but as they age they become less driven by only that.

    I think men can appreciate physical beauty, but when it comes to relationships and love -- committing to someone for a lifetime, even when that youth is gone -- it is not what drives them.

    Regarding the 18 year old male? Nothing is attractive unless I'm just judging, physically. And even physically: the average 18 year old male doesn't hold the physical features I'm most drawn to. There's a rough edge that comes with age. I just like older men. I always have.

    I am not attracted to youth, perhaps I should say - physically or psychologically. So if a guy is in his 30's and baby face, there will just be no pull.
    I wouldn't say that the physical aspects of attraction are all there is to for men, or that women ignore physical features entirely. It simply happens to be the case that, all things being equal, physical attributes are a lot more important to a man when selecting a sexual partner than they are for women.

    It's hardwired into to us to the point where we don't even really see women as complete individuals. We see them as a collections of body parts instead, compartmentalized so as to be more easily assessed on a part-by-part basis.

    Brain Sees Men as Whole, Women as Parts

    Frankly, this makes perfect sense given what we tend to see in society at large.

    Many women will gladly settle in with a man who might very well be considered to be physically unattractive, or even ugly, if he can bring something else to the table; power, wealth, maturity, an exceptionally confident and forceful personality, etca. Barring abject desperation, the same simply cannot be said of most men.

    While I certainly agree that, especially when looking for a long term relationship, other factors apply for men as well as women. There usually has to be some physical spark present to draw our attention in the first place.

    We're looking for physical markers of fertility and health first and foremost. When compared with older women, the younger variety simply happen to possess them both in abundance, more often than not.

    If you look at the qualities that come along with 'young girls' (late teens) I don't think it's the appearances that count. I think it's deeper than that. I think it's the appeal to the male psyche overall: is she independent or will she rely on him? Is she a novice in the bedroom or will he have to guide her and teach her how he'd enjoy things? Is she a virgin? (I think this is a huge pull for a lot of guys). Inexperienced, naive - like dependents, not women.

    Women, as we age, become more self-reliant, more opinionated, and more vocal about varies issues.

    THAT, I think, is what really plays into it for some guys. Young women allow men of all ages to play into the concept of masculinity as many men still see it.
    That might possibly be the case when talking about men who make a deliberate point of seeking out younger women on a pathological basis.

    However, that has little to do with the innate physical attraction men tend to feel towards young women.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 03-23-14 at 06:45 PM.

  5. #375
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    Re: How We Raise Our Daughters - 21st Century [W:87,158,368]

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    So all in all:
    You're saying that men are drawn to women only in regard to the looks department. - You're talking about physical, eye-to-eye.
    You're saying that women aren't drawn to men only in regard to the looks department. Instead: we hold interest in 'everything else'. - Talking about attraction to a person, mind to mind.

    Did I read that right?
    It's not an ONLY THIS AND NOTHING ELSE process. It's a matter of how much value is assigned to each.

    Women are more attuned to male status than men are to women's status. This starts early and continues in life. Look back on the high school kids. The girls want the football star, the popular boy in school to be their boyfriend. The guys want to nail the cheerleader. The guys don't particularly care about the captain of the girls' basketball team or the girl who is school president.

    Look even younger. Girls with their Justin Beiber pictures on the walls of their bedroom. They're focusing on the popular boy. Do you see your sons idolizing Selena Gomez and plastering their bedroom walls with her photos? I'd be surprised if you did. The girl being at the top of a pecking order holds way less appeal for boys than does the reverse for girls.

    Men are not superficial, shallow dolts who think their only their cocks. That might drive them when they're younger, but as they age they become less driven by only that.
    And similarly, women who chase after the bad boys and think that they can get them to commit and that they can change him, remake him, into a man devoted to her, change their focus as they age and then turn their attention to the loser guys who they overlooked when they were younger and who they now see make pretty good husband material.

    Lookee here, The New York Times reports:

    After midnight on a rainy night last week in Chapel Hill, N.C., a large group of sorority women at the University of North Carolina squeezed into the corner booth of a gritty basement bar. Bathed in a neon glow, they splashed beer from pitchers, traded jokes and belted out lyrics to a Taylor Swift heartache anthem thundering overhead. As a night out, it had everything — except guys.

    Poor little things. All dressed up and there's no guys around.

    North Carolina, with a student body that is nearly 60 percent female, is just one of many large universities that at times feel eerily like women’s colleges. . .

    Jayne Dallas, a senior studying advertising who was seated across the table, grumbled that the population of male undergraduates was even smaller when you looked at it as a dating pool. “Out of that 40 percent, there are maybe 20 percent that we would consider, and out of those 20, 10 have girlfriends, so all the girls are fighting over that other 10 percent,” she said.

    So it's not a matter of there not being guys around, it's a matter of there not being "high value" guys around. Half the guys are written off and they're written off in an environment where there are 3 girls for every 2 guys.

    Let's see how the guys see this issue. Some guys are very happy:

    Several male students acknowledged that the math skewed pleasantly in their favor. “You don’t have to work that hard,” said Matt Garofalo, a senior at North Carolina. “You meet a girl at a late-night restaurant, she’s texting you the next day.”

    But some guys are still schlubs sitting on the outside:

    Indeed, there are a fair number of Mr. Lonelyhearts on campus. “Even though there’s this huge imbalance between the sexes, it still doesn’t change the fact of guys sitting around, bemoaning their single status,” said Patrick Hooper, a Georgia senior. “It’s the same as high school, but the women are even more enchanting and beautiful.”

    And perhaps still elusive. Many women eagerly hit the library on Saturday night. And most would prefer to go out with friends, rather than date a campus brute.

    Just like fat chicks bemoan their fate in life and cry about how wonderful their personalities are, these nice guys are also passed over and they moan and bitch about it. Sometimes they even write to advice columnists.

    I think men can appreciate physical beauty, but when it comes to relationships and love -- committing to someone for a lifetime, even when that youth is gone -- it is not what drives them.
    Exactly so. When a man appreciate the youthful beauty of an 18 year old, or even a 15 year old, girl, he's not thinking about her as relationship and marriage material. He's looking at women, all women, by their appearance. If a woman is beautiful and appealing, then a man enjoys looking at her. Period. His day has been brightened. When a woman daydreams about some male character in a Harlequin novel, then her day is brightened.

    These are the first filters we use, but when we're looking for deeper relationships, then we have to go beyond the first filters and in some cases override them. The man would never seek out the fat girl but circumstance has brought them together or the girl would never want to have anything to do with that guy who wears his Starfleet uniform to the office on casual Fridays but circumstance has put them together and she discovers more about him and begins to find him appealing.

    People go beyond their first filters when needed.

    Regarding the 18 year old male? Nothing is attractive unless I'm just judging, physically. And even physically: the average 18 year old male doesn't hold the physical features I'm most drawn to. There's a rough edge that comes with age. I just like older men. I always have.
    Young women start out life rich and young men start out life poor. Women lose their "wealth" as they age and men increase their "wealth" as they age. A 21 year old woman is generally more attractive to men than a 31 year old woman. A 31 year old man is generally more attractive to women than a 21 year old man.

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    Re: How We Raise Our Daughters - 21st Century [W:87,158,368]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Would you teach your sons to be attracted to fat girls?
    I wouldn't TEACH them to be attracted to anyone. I would instill my values in them and let them make their own decisions in that respect.
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    Re: How We Raise Our Daughters - 21st Century [W:87,158,368]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Capster78 wrote "I would teach my daughter to put little value in popularity. To see value in personality over popularity."

    I'm reading this comment as though he believes that girls can be taught to change what appeals to them, that their tastes in boys/men are learned. If this is his belief, then can he teach his sons to find fat girls attractive?
    Yes, they can be taught to some degree what to be attracted to. Do you not think society has any effect on what people find attractive. That would be go completely against human nature if you thought that. It is in our genes to take from society what is considered successful or attractive. It is a survival instinct that has existed for hundreds of thousands of years and the reason the human species has thrived. However, in the past 100-500 years, this instinct has become outdated and no longer necessary. Most of us no longer live in a world of lions, tigers and bears. We have moved from evolving physically, to evolving socially. That is what has brought about all the rights movements, the social evolution of society. In that sense, society can change traditional notions of sexuality.

    This issue of what young girls find attractive in young boys actually ties into what Goshin and I and others have been stating - respect. A popular boy is a boy who is respected by other boys and girls, but mostly boys. That male respect hierarchy develops early. The popular young boy is a boy who is higher on the pecking order. Girls find popular boys attractive. Women find powerful men attractive. Women find highly respected men attractive.
    While I understand this point, again, we can change this and we need to change this. What women find attractive is based on what others find attractive. That is why being popular makes one attractive. The goal is to change what is popular.

    To answer your question, no I wouldn't encourage a girl, or my daughters, to find a heavier man attractive because I don't think that I can shape their natures and change their tastes. What I will do though is shape their social networks as best as I can to close them off to some types of boys and broaden their exposure to other types of young boys. That's within my control.
    All I can tell you is that many times, a young girl will find the very man her father is trying to keep her from, attractive. So a father has to be careful when placing his will on his daughter. The only thing you can really do is instill your values and hope they stick.


    And men end up with women who aren't young nor beautiful.

    Men seek different things in women than women seek in men. Women will pair up with an overweight man if he has other qualities which appeal to her more than his weight displeases her.
    I think, for most men, currently, their social status dictates what options they have in regaurds to women. Men do all the initiating when it comes to dating and sex. Women do the picking and choosing as to who they deem worthy of their attention. While I think a mans physical attractiveness plays a role, his social status is what initially gets a womans attention. Women key on many things to determine a mans social status. They look for confidence, and signs of success such as the way a man dresses and carries himself.

    Men are more conscious of female beauty, youth, body shape than women are of men. Women are more conscious of male status, respect and personality than men are of women. It's women who size men up by their status, their careers, their cars. Men aren't rejecting women because they don't drive the right car or because the woman is in a lower paid career. It's not that the physical objects are important, it's that they're quick and easy signal markers. Women can more easily display their assets compared to men.
    This is what we need to change if we are to level the playing field. Currently, men have no power in a relationship. Women still continue to use their sexual power to leverage power in society which is unchecked because men no longer have a monopoly on social status or wealth. That is why we need to start teaching our daughters to choose their men based not on their social status or wealth, because they can attain that on their own, but on personality. Women, overall, have still refused to change their traditional roles in sex and dating, but are expecting everyone else to change their traditional roles.



    And guys who like to walk around in Star Trek uniforms is not an issue for women, right? Women love nerdy nerds just as much as they love Daniel Craig.
    They should.

    Nice guys are to young women like fat girls are to young men.



    You're a woman, so what stature does a 18 year old boy hold that you'd find attractive? I don't expect women to judge men by the same standard that men judge women. Similarly, Meg Whitman holds absolutely no appeal to me. She's a billionaire, was a powerful CEO of eBay. Her status does zilch for me. Women though seem to be very attracted to powerful and respected men.



    The exceptions prove the rule.

    Look around at the world. Do you see a lot of men paying to watch Granny Porn? Do you see many 45 year old, mother of 6 women, who are exotic dancers? What you see is men being attracted to very young women, even the old codgers aren't focusing their desire on women the same age, which is why we don't really have big markets for granny porn. 70 year old men still love looking at 20 year old girls.
    Well, I would never expect a man or woman for that matter, to find something not physically attractive, physically attractive.. What needs to change is what we consider attractive.
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    Re: How We Raise Our Daughters - 21st Century [W:87,158,368]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    It simply happens to be the case that, all things being equal, physical attributes are a lot more important to a man when selecting a sexual partner than they are for women....
    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    It's not an ONLY THIS AND NOTHING ELSE process. It's a matter of how much value is assigned to each.


    Exactly so. When a man appreciate the youthful beauty of an 18 year old, or even a 15 year old, girl, he's not thinking about her as relationship and marriage material. He's looking at women, all women, by their appearance...
    Okay. I see where we are now.

    I think the difference between me and my points and you two and your points is what we're thinking of as 'attraction'

    Attraction (as I'm looking at it) the snag or pull one person feels for another - face to face isn't even needed, it could be written or heard about. It could be anything.

    Attraction as you two are referring to it (with some of your posted points) is mostly physical.

    Two very different types of attraction. Of course women are physically attracted to certain features, physically. Of course we look at men who hold these physical features. And of course men can find non-physical things to be equally attractive. And men also 'settle' for what they can't have (they might want the Stepford Wife but she doesn't exist, etc)

    We don't really seem to be disagreeing on any of this, we just seem to be thinking of 'attraction' for the purpose of this topic in two different ways.

    Thus: I'm referring to the physical interests as 'appeal' or 'something to appreciate' - I'm not lumping that in with 'the attraction that holds a couple together' or even 'the spark that gets a relationship going, even if it plummets'
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    Re: How We Raise Our Daughters - 21st Century [W:87,158,368]

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Currently, men have no power in a relationship. Women still continue to use their sexual power to leverage power in society which is unchecked because men no longer have a monopoly on social status or wealth.

    Part of me is

    Lots of me is

    A bit of me is

    Then I think you must be

    Which leads to this whole thing being a big old

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    Re: How We Raise Our Daughters - 21st Century [W:87,158,368]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    And hence the start of women as doormats, women who stay in abusive situations struggling to be loved...because she's learned it's 'her fault' she's not worthy of love.
    And men will stay with emotionally and verbally abusive women because they do not feel that they deserve to be respected . We are all losers in the gender war.

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