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Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

  • Total voters
    83
Bodhisattva said:
I am done too... once I heard that cell phones can kill off reproductive sperm I started carrying the phone deep in my front pants pocket...
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I think there might be better methods. ;)
 
Peter King said:
The whole problem is that female emancipation started slower in the US IMHO, in the Netherlands most people live in smaller and bigger towns and the process of emancipation of women and the re-education of men worked a lot quicker.
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Finally someone said it. Men do not need re-educated, or reprogrammed and women are surely not the ones to do it. Just as women were not the puppets of men to be programed in any old way they felt like it, men are not the puppets of women to be programmed in any old way they desire. This is what the modern feminist movement is about and it's exactly why people consider it a supremacy movement filled with feminazis. They need to be stopped in their path. It's one thing to ask for rights, but it's another to meddle in mens culture and to warp them into what you want.

It kind of annoys me that feminist still claim anything they are doing is about equal rights, when the fact is they are meddling with men, not asking government to protect their rights. They are past equal rights, and they have been past it for a while now. It's about winning now, and it's been all about winning now for a few decades.
 
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tecoyah said:
None of these are either conservative or liberal realities.
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In some ways they are, and in others they are not.

These factors might not be intrinsically partisan in and of themselves. However, the attitudes that play into, and sometimes exacerbate them, certainly do seem to come in rather distinctly "Left" and "Right Wing" flavors.

By and large, the attitudes responsible for bringing our society to the licentious and self-centered state of affairs you see today are rather more Left than Right.

opendebate said:
I agree with tecoyah's initial response to this. I think that your perspective is grounded in wanting things to stay the same. As a woman, I see the advances in equality for woman as a tremendous benefit not only to women but to society as a whole. I think the family has actually benefited from the changes to it's structure. You resist change and I welcome it so you see its destruction I see it's evolution. One mans trash.
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My "perspective" is grounded in the fact that the "new model" way of doing things simply cannot be shown to have resulted in generally favorable outcomes for anyone in our society, least of all women.

What has the decline of marriage and ascendency of divorce resulted in more than anything else?

Single motherhood.

New York Times - For Women Under 30, Most Births Occur Outside Marriage

0218-nat-webBIRTHS-articleInline-v2.jpg

Is single motherhood preferable to traditional marriage for either women or children?

Absolutely not.

Unmarried mothers are far more likely to suffer from abuse than the married variety.

Marriage: Still the Safest Place For Women and Children

The institution that most strongly protects mothers and children from domestic abuse and violent crime is marriage. Analysis of ten years worth of findings from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) has conducted since 1973, demonstrates that mothers who are or ever have been married are far less likely to suffer from violent crime than are mothers who never marry.

Specifically, data from the NCVS survey show that:

◾Married women with children suffer far less abuse than single mothers. In fact, the rate of spousal, boyfriend, or domestic partner abuse is twice as high among mothers who have never been married as it is among mothers who have ever married (including those separated or divorced).

◾Married women with children are far less likely to suffer from violent crime in general or at the hands of intimate acquaintances or strangers. Mothers who have never married--including those who are single and living either alone or with a boyfriend and those who are cohabiting with their child's father--are more than twice as likely to be victims of violent crime than are mothers who have ever married.
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They are also far more likely to live in poverty.

The Working Poor Families Project

The majority of female-headed families work, but they are disproportionately burdened by poverty, compared with two-parent families. The latest data from the Census Bureau show that female-headed working families make up 22 percent of all working families, but they make up 39 percent of low-income working families (see Table 1). In fact, there are now 4.1 million lowincome working families with children headed by working mothers.
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Oh! And how does the reality of all that new found promiscuous sexuality women are supposedly "free" to "enjoy" these days stack against the ideological spiel feminists and Leftists love to spin on it?

Well... For one thing, most women don't even report enjoying it.

New York Times - In Hookups, Inequality Still Reigns

Similarly, a study of 24,000 students at 21 colleges over five years found that about 40 percent of women had an orgasm during their last hookup involving intercourse, while 80 percent of men did. The research was led by Paula England, a sociologist at New York University who studies the dynamics of casual sex.

By contrast, roughly three quarters of women in the survey said they had an orgasm the last time they had sex in a committed relationship.
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They even tend to regret it later in life.

Science Daily - Study examines potential evolutionary role of 'sexual regret' in human survival, reproduction

•The top three most common regrets for women are: losing virginity to the wrong partner (24 percent), cheating on a present or past partner (23 percent) and moving too fast sexually (20 percent).

•For men, the top three regrets are: being too shy to make a move on a prospective sexual partner (27 percent), not being more sexually adventurous when young (23 percent) and not being more sexually adventurous during their single days (19 percent).

•More women (17 percent) than men (10 percent) included "having sex with a physically unattractive partner" as a top regret.

•Although rates of actually engaging in casual sex were similar overall among participants (56 percent), women reported more frequent and more intense regrets about it.
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Evolutionary pressures probably explain the gender difference in sexual regret, says Haselton, who earned her Ph.D. in psychology at UT Austin.

"For men throughout evolutionary history, every missed opportunity to have sex with a new partner is potentially a missed reproduce opportunity -- a costly loss from an evolutionary perspective." Haselton says. "But for women, reproduction required much more investment in each offspring, including nine months of pregnancy and potentially two additional years of breastfeeding. The consequences of casual sex were so much higher for women than for men, and this is likely to have shaped emotional reactions to sexual liaisons even today."
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For another, it also puts women at a disproportionate amount of risk for sexual assault...

National Institute of Justice - Factors That Increase Sexual Assault Risk

Numerous sexual partners. Women who reported having more sexual partners since entering college were more likely to have reported forced sexual assault.
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...and STDs in comparison to men, or women who behave more conservatively.

Are STDs Worse for Women?

CDC Fact Sheet - 10 Ways STDs Impact
Women Differently from Men

I'm sorry, Opendebate, but I'm really not seeing how the social attitudes you support make anything "better for women." By and large, they only make things worse.

Legitimately equal rights make things better for women. I'll freely admit that.

However, the problem here is that what modern feminism and modern social attitudes tend to support goes far, far, deeper than that. They try to force equal outcomes, and encourage equal desire for the sexes to engage in the similar sorts of behaviors, regardless of whether it is a good idea, or even what they really want in the first place.

The objective fact of the matter is that this simply doesn't result in anything positive for either individuals, or society in general.
 
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Henrin said:
Finally someone said it. Men do not need re-educated, or reprogrammed and women are surely not the ones to do it. Just as women were not the puppets of men to be programed in any old way they felt like it, men are not the puppets of women to be programmed in any old way they desire. This is what the modern feminist movement is about and it's exactly why people consider it a supremacy movement filled with feminazis. They need to be stopped in their path. It's one thing to ask for rights, but it's another to meddle in mens culture and to warp them into what you want.

It kind of annoys me that feminist still claim anything they are doing is about equal rights, when the fact is they are meddling with men, not asking government to protect their rights. They are past equal rights, and they have been past it for a while now. It's about winning now, and it's been all about winning now for a few decades.
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I agree. The ultimate expression of this male 're-education' is taking away from boys what makes them little boys.

Little boys climb trees, crawl around in the dirt and get really dirty, run and play outside, and pretend cowboys and soldiers, shoot each other with guns made from their fingers, catch frogs and bugs and nearly any other animal around just to have done it and to look at them for a bit. It's what little boys are made of; snakes and snails and puppy dog tails, as the old adage goes.

Why is it that school administrators and teachers believe that they should be expelled from school for being little boys? Another manifestation of this male 're-programming'?

No telling what the final impact of all this 're-education' is going to be. A crop of males that won't stand up to challenges or for themselves? Perhaps even a drop in reproductive drive? Who are all the fathers of the future going to be? Are we really sure this is what we really need at the sacrifice of boys being boys? Are effeminate males really that much better for women? For society? Really? 'Cause I'm not really believing that.
 
Henrin said:
Finally someone said it. Men do not need re-educated, or reprogrammed and women are surely not the ones to do it. Just as women were not the puppets of men to be programed in any old way they felt like it, men are not the puppets of women to be programmed in any old way they desire. This is what the modern feminist movement is about and it's exactly why people consider it a supremacy movement filled with feminazis. They need to be stopped in their path. It's one thing to ask for rights, but it's another to meddle in mens culture and to warp them into what you want.

It kind of annoys me that feminist still claim anything they are doing is about equal rights, when the fact is they are meddling with men, not asking government to protect their rights. They are past equal rights, and they have been past it for a while now. It's about winning now, and it's been all about winning now for a few decades.
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actually they do need to be re-educated because moronic old age views like "men should not cry, men must show no weakness, men are the lords of their manor, etc. etc. etc." need to be educated out of men because these points of views and behaviors are archaic and utterly stupid.

They need to be re-educated into more successful men for the 21st century and that is how it should be in a truly equal relationship.
 
Peter King said:
actually they do need to be re-educated because moronic old age views like "men should not cry, men must show no weakness, men are the lords of their manor, etc. etc. etc." need to be educated out of men because these points of views and behaviors are archaic and utterly stupid.
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No, they don't. There is no need to re-educate anything out of men or mess with their culture, just there is no reason to re-educate anything out of women or mess with their culture. The very fact there is men like you that support the feminazis is a problem, but the bigger problem is that people actually think it is their place to **** with male culture.

They need to be re-educated into more successful men for the 21st century and that is how it should be in a truly equal relationship.
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Your idea on what is equal is just men being puppets to women and their will.
 
Peter King said:
actually they do need to be re-educated because moronic old age views like "men should not cry, men must show no weakness, men are the lords of their manor, etc. etc. etc." need to be educated out of men because these points of views and behaviors are archaic and utterly stupid.

They need to be re-educated into more successful men for the 21st century and that is how it should be in a truly equal relationship.
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Henrin said:
No, they don't. There is no need to re-educate anything out of men or mess with their culture, just there is no reason to re-educate anything out of women or mess with their culture. The very fact there is men like you that support the feminazis is a problem, but the bigger problem is that people actually think it is their place to **** with male culture.



Your idea on what is equal is just men being puppets to women and their will.
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Well I do like a "manly" man. I don't want a guy who cries all the time (more than me) or who spends as much time in the mirror as I do. I don't like a guy who is an arrogant ass though, and I would consider a man who helps out with the household chores and the children to be very manly. A man who enjoys interacting and taking care of his kids is AWESOME as far as I'm concerned. I've always kind of had a thing for single dads and dads who do a lot with their children actually. They are kind of sexy IMO. ;)
 
ChrisL said:
Well I do like a "manly" man. I don't want a guy who cries all the time (more than me) or who spends as much time in the mirror as I do. I don't like a guy who is an arrogant ass though, and I would consider a man who helps out with the household chores and the children to be very manly. A man who enjoys interacting and taking care of his kids is AWESOME as far as I'm concerned. I've always kind of had a thing for single dads and dads who do a lot with their children actually. They are kind of sexy IMO. ;)
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The kind of man who cannot be bothered to take the time to properly care for and connect with his spouse, let alone his children, doesn't even deserve the title, IMO.
 
Henrin said:
No, they don't. There is no need to re-educate anything out of men or mess with their culture, just there is no reason to re-educate anything out of women or mess with their culture. The very fact there is men like you that support the feminazis is a problem, but the bigger problem is that people actually think it is their place to **** with male culture.
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Well, we are going to have to disagree on that one. Men need to realize that the "old ways" were unacceptable and need to be altered.

And no, the real problem with this is that you insult women by calling them "feminazis", the sad thing is that most men are too insecure or too arrogant to have to deal with women who do not want to acknowledge the male superiority.


Henrin said:
Your idea on what is equal is just men being puppets to women and their will.
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No, I am talking about equality and not about one gender being dominant to the other one.
 
ChrisL said:
Well I do like a "manly" man. I don't want a guy who cries all the time (more than me) or who spends as much time in the mirror as I do. I don't like a guy who is an arrogant ass though, and I would consider a man who helps out with the household chores and the children to be very manly. A man who enjoys interacting and taking care of his kids is AWESOME as far as I'm concerned. I've always kind of had a thing for single dads and dads who do a lot with their children actually. They are kind of sexy IMO. ;)
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I am not advocating men to become blubbering crying narcissistic make-up abusing fancy boy. Women also do not cry all the time but when it is healthy for them to cry they will do so and men should be able to do the same. It is also not wrong to well up when seeing incredible tragedy. If a father looses his child he should be able to cry and mourn and not "be tough" about it even though it is killing him inside.

I still feel sad about some things in life (even though I might not cry about it). Things like the death of my 18 year old cat, the death of my grandfather and grandmother, Natalee Holloway, etc. Having feelings is not wrong IMHO, not even for a man. Burying their feelings because it is unmanly to have them is a problem IMHO.
 
Peter King said:
Well, we are going to have to disagree on that one. Men need to realize that the "old ways" were unacceptable and need to be altered.
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The old ways are fine. There is no reason men need to change and there is no reason for me to accept your feminization of men for any reason what so ever.

And no, the real problem with this is that you insult women by calling them "feminazis", the sad thing is that most men are too insecure or too arrogant to have to deal with women who do not want to acknowledge the male superiority.
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I was insulting only those women that want to change the culture of men. All other women are unaffected by my comment.

No, I am talking about equality and not about one gender being dominant to the other one.
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No one is supporting dominance. In fact, I made it clear that neither sex should be the puppet of the other.
 
Henrin said:
The old ways are fine. There is no reason men need to change and there is no reason for me to accept your feminization of men for any reason what so ever.

I was insulting only those women that want to change the culture of men. All other women are unaffected by comment.

No one is supporting dominance. In fact, I made it clear that neither sex should be the puppet of the other.
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So women who want their men to be more invested in their relationship and marriages are trying to change the culture of men? If there is a problem things have to be fixed. That is the whole reason why a lot of marriages fail, why there are so many therapists and why there is so much attention for subjects relating to relationships on Dr. Phil (for example).

Men think there is nothing wrong with their culture but divorce statistics do not lie IMHO.
 
Henrin said:
The old ways are fine. There is no reason men need to change and there is no reason for me to accept your feminization of men for any reason what so ever.



I was insulting only those women that want to change the culture of men. All other women are unaffected by my comment.



No one is supporting dominance. In fact, I made it clear that neither sex should be the puppet of the other.
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I'd have to agree. Men should bring to the relationship their strengths which they are best suited and best able to bring, and not need to change themselves into someone else's 'image' of what a man should be. Within the population of men, there is enough variations to match the needs and desires to compliment their partners so as to make a stronger whole.

I'll be the first to admit that this means different things to different cultures and to different people. It's not all the same everywhere.
 
Peter King said:
So women who want their men to be more invested in their relationship and marriages are trying to change the culture of men? If there is a problem things have to be fixed. That is the whole reason why a lot of marriages fail,
why there are so many therapists and why there is so much attention for subjects relating to relationships on Dr. Phil (for example.
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Tell me, why is it that women get to order men do more around the house and in the relationship, but men can't say a word to women about such matters? Is it perhaps that feminazis want to control men and get them to do exactly what they want?

Men think there is nothing wrong with their culture but divorce statistics do not lie IMHO.
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What makes you think that just has to do with men? The vast majority of men have no interest in controlling women, and in fact, that was true well before this whole feminization of men movement began.
 
Henrin said:
Tell me, why is it that women get to order men do more around the house and in the relationship, but men can't say a word to women about such matters? Is it perhaps that feminazis want to control men and get them to do exactly what they want?
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Order? I am sorry but since when is a partnership ordering the other to do something. Negotiate, communicate and compromise are words that should be very important in a marriage. Sadly one gender has more issues with these kinds of things and women are not that gender.

A wife usually asks her husband to bring out the trash ten times before she orders him. Men usually are the worlds greatest experts at procrastinating. Sure some men actually do something when they are asked to do it but most will have to be asked multiple times before doing it. You might be different than those men but a lot of men have problem in that department.

Henrin said:
What makes you think that just has to do with men? The vast majority of men have no interest in controlling women, and in fact, that was true well before this whole feminization of men movement began.
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What makes me think it is to do with the culture of men? I am a child of divorced parents. I have seen other couples break up and often it is due to issues caused by males. The vast majority of men however are controlling women. They control them by the most basic things, going out with their friends watching monday night football at Hooters. That the dishes have to be done, the children have to be put to bed, the house has yet to be cleaned etc. etc. etc. etc. is less important that "hanging out with the bro's" because a man needs his guy time. A lot of women do not get to have a "girl time" because they cannot afford to not bring the children to bed, clean the house, cook the dinner etc.

Men come home from work and need their time. When women come home from work most of them do not have the luxury to kick off their shoes and fall onto the couch and should "honey can you get me a beer".

Now I am not saying that all men are like that but men are still the ones in the partnership who come up lacking and that can be very detrimental to a marriage. From personal experience it is the woman who bends over backward to keep the wedding, the house hold and the family going even though she is unhappy with the whole situation.

I might be a bit prejudiced but I have seen the "old culture of men" personally. When the a-hole that my dad was, finally came home from being at the canteen of the local soccer club on Sunday night, refereeing instead of spending time with his children, he sat his large ass down on the sofa and switched the TV to his channel so that he could watch soccer on TV. That my sister and me would want to watch sesame street before going to bed was not his problem. His house, his TV and his shows. My sister, mom and me were sitting huddled in front of a small screen black and white TV set while he was sitting on his backside chugging down beers while watching soccer.

I am not advocating re-educating manly character trades out of men, I am talking about re-educating them so that they are able to negotiate, communicate and compromise to make their relationships work. Now women might also need some re-education but the biggest problem lies with men IMHO. They think they are doing enough when their wives obviously do not see it that way and in the end this will most likely kill the marriage.
 
Peter King said:
Order? I am sorry but since when is a partnership ordering the other to do something. Negotiate, communicate and compromise are words that should be very important in a marriage. Sadly one gender has more issues with these kinds of things and women are not that gender.

A wife usually asks her husband to bring out the trash ten times before she orders him. Men usually are the worlds greatest experts at procrastinating. Sure some men actually do something when they are asked to do it but most will have to be asked multiple times before doing it. You might be different than those men but a lot of men have problem in that department.
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I'm aware of how it works. She wants the man to do something and after making it abundantly clear to her it's not going to happen she decided to practice coercion.

What makes me think it is to do with the culture of men? I am a child of divorced parents. I have seen other couples break up and often it is due to issues caused by males. The vast majority of men however are controlling women.
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This should be interesting for you to prove.

They control them by the most basic things, going out with their friends watching monday night football at Hooters.
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No control present with that action.

That the dishes have to be done, the children have to be put to bed, the house has yet to be cleaned etc. etc. etc. etc. is less important that "hanging out with the bro's" because a man needs his guy time.
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No control present.

A lot of women do not get to have a "girl time" because they cannot afford to not bring the children to bed, clean the house, cook the dinner etc.
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Still no control present.

Men come home from work and need their time. When women come home from work most of them do not have the luxury to kick off their shoes and fall onto the couch and should "honey can you get me a beer".
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Still no control present.

Now I am not saying that all men are like that but men are still the ones in the partnership who come up lacking and that can be very detrimental to a marriage. From personal experience it is the woman who bends over backward to keep the wedding, the house hold and the family going even though she is unhappy with the whole situation.
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Still no control. Sorry, you didn't prove your premise.


I am not advocating re-educating manly character trades out of men,
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You mean other than the crying nonsense?
 
Henrin said:
Equality movements from where I sit are commonly lead by coercion, ignorance, and a false premise that people are the same, as if there no differences between things, and you can just treat everything and everyone exactly the same. This idiotic notion was in fact pushed by feminist themselves when they pushed for equal rights, but it is entirely baseless and ignorant of the world, of human nature, and ****, just life in general. The notion they put forward was that there was no differences between the sexes, but as should be obvious that is such an obviously baseless claim that everyone should have been mocking it, but no, they were women so of course all the men listened to what what was clearly nonsense that warranted nothing but ridicule in truth.

Lets be clear though, equal rights has very little to do with the movement at this point, and in truth, beyond all the bull**** there was a reason it was called feminism, and it wasn't because it stood for equal rights. There is plenty that is going on today in law, and in culture that places women above men, and much of it, if not all of it, was pushed by the feminist movement. That however is not the point, and never was my point in this thread. My point is that ignoring human nature, as women have done with this blind pursuit towards a goal will only ever lead to disaster, and if you read the book in question, you would find that is exactly what has happened. Sure laws has played a part, but much of it deals with ignoring the reality of the world and the nature of the sexes, and as expected I'm sure, has led to disaster.
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Then you misunderstand what an equality movement is and what it strives to achieve

Equality movements are about individuals being treated equally and not having their options limited by the unfounded judgments of others
 
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opendebate said:
You misunderstand the what an equality movement is and what it strives to achieve then.

Equality movements are about individuals being treated equally and not having their options limited by the premature judgments of others which are typically rooted in stereotypes.
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So what happens when these premature judgments are made? :cool:
 
Henrin said:
They don't deserve it?
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no. when you judge a person based on stereotypes about their gender, party, lifestyle instead of who they are as an individual IMO you often end up handing out undeserved judgment.
 
opendebate said:
no. when you judge a person based on stereotypes about their gender, party, lifestyle instead of who they are as an individual IMO you often end up handing out undeserved judgment.
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Ok, I got ya. That wasn't really what I was getting at, but sure that is true.
 
Henrin said:
I'm aware of how it works. She wants the man to do something and after making it abundantly clear to her it's not going to happen she decided to practice coercion.
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No, she needs her husband to help around the house and he should not have to be asked 50 times before doing what he needs to do. She needs him to be something more than a bit actor in the play that is their marriage.

Sometimes women do use coercion which does not help in their marriage but what are women to do if men act like little spoiled children when they have to do their share of the work in the household? Do it themselves? They are their wives, not the reincarnation of their mothers. Some men should learn to do their fair share and not try to treat their wives like their did their mothers before they got married. Wives were not put on earth to clean up behind men. Men are perfectly able to put their dirty clothes in hampers, pick up stuff they drop etc.

Henrin said:
This should be interesting for you to prove.
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You mean other than spousal abuse, rape inside the marriage, sexual harassment at the workplace, discrimination at the workplace, wage discrimination (because also outside of the marriage men like to be controlling women).

And it is not just actions but it also is attitudes towards women that go towards controlling them. That attitude is present everywhere, young culture is rampant with that. Modern music videos are mostly about men with scantily clad women, you may not think that is about control but I do. This kind of attitude is what is wrong IMHO. Men have a habit of objectifying women, treat women like property and that is not right.

And even though a lot of men do not think of themselves as controlling, that does not mean that they are not in reality controlling women. When women's reproductive issues were discussed in Washington, all one could see was men.

Henrin said:
No control present with that action.

No control present.

Still no control present.

Still no control present.

Still no control. Sorry, you didn't prove your premise.
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I was not trying to prove any premise about control with those examples but about how male attitudes/male culture is in part to blame for the break up of marriages as I had previously stated. You asked in a previous post "What makes you think that just has to do with men?" and I gave examples why I think it has to do with males.

And FYI, I disagree with you about them not proving control of the man. With their actions, and some of those actions I mentioned in my previous post, are evidence that men are controlling their wives in these situations. As said, a man takes the rights to go with his mates to a bar, controlling their marriage, the work his wife will have to do extra and the freedom of his wife. While he is at the bar, his wife will have to do things he could have/should have done and it also limits her freedom. She cannot go out with her friends for a drink because she has to stay home for the children.

Henrin said:
You mean other than the crying nonsense?
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Yes, yes, another great example of the wonderful good old "male attitude/culture".
 
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