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Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

Men: Would you marry an American Woman?


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Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Pay attention and focus!

You claimed that:

The Japanese birth rate is falling because their singles are not having sex. Please name these modern societies where, like Japan, young singles are sexually inactive

They are "failing" simply because young people are not marrying or reproducing at a rate anywhere near sufficient to keep the population stable. Most of the industrialized world is facing these same difficulties.

Virtually the only countries getting by in this regard are those which can turn to immigration instead, therefore relying upon the poor and impoverished to do their breeding so the locals don't have to (which is problematic in and of itself).

The "shut in" culture which results in young Japanese people having a lack of interest in sexual activity in general, as well as marriage and procreation, is an additional symptom of this overall problem. My point was that the state of affairs described in the OP shows some definite similarities to it.

It is not especially far fetched to suggest that we might eventually see something similar to what has occurred in Japan in our society as well.

So you prefer to remain single and childless?

Until I have the resources available not to render any attempt at supporting a family a complete non-starter from the ground up, yes.

Most of the men Japanese women are shooting down are in such situations.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

They are "failing" simply because young people are not marrying or reproducing at a rate anywhere near sufficient to keep the population stable. Most of the industrialized world is facing these same difficulties.

You claimed that "Most "modern" societies are failing in the same way Japan is."

Japan is failing, at least in part, because their singles are sexually inactive. Please prove your claim is correct by identifying those modern nations where singles are sexually inactive.

Japan is also a nation where many singles despise sex. Please name those modern societies where the singles despise sex.


Until I have the resources available not to render any attempt at supporting a family a complete non-starter from the ground up, yes.

Most of the men Japanese women are shooting down are in such situations.

IOW, you have chosen to put your material comfort above conforming to traditional gender roles. Just more evidence that those traditional values are a failure and your hypocrisy in criticizing society for not adhering to those traditions while refusing to adhere to those traditions yourself.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Japanese, at the moment. I was simply saying that our own society seems to be showing many of the same trends.

This is, for obvious reasons, troubling.



It's already happened. :shrug:

Study Says Japanese Men And Women “Despise Sexual Contact”: Birth Rates At All-Time Low

Unfortunately the source of that comment is in Japanese. I'd love to read the details. I'm skeptical of such extreme views. Then I found this and really question the validity of that study:
In the Japan Family Planning Association's 2013 study on sex among young people, there was far more data on men than women. I asked the association's head, Kunio Kitamura, why. "Sexual drive comes from males," said the man who advises the government. "Females do not experience the same levels of desire."


Reading further in your link, part of the problem is the Japanese business culture and social attitudes towards working mothers.
Tomita says a woman's chances of promotion in Japan stop dead as soon as she marries. "The bosses assume you will get pregnant." Once a woman does have a child, she adds, the long, inflexible hours become unmanageable. "You have to resign. You end up being a housewife with no independent income. It's not an option for women like me."

Around 70% of Japanese women leave their jobs after their first child. The World Economic Forum consistently ranks Japan as one of the world's worst nations for gender equality at work. Social attitudes don't help. Married working women are sometimes demonised as oniyome, or "devil wives".

It would seem a portion of their problems come from trying to force the old model that Americans have long since shrugged off. If it were more acceptable for a woman to have a family AND work, they might not be headed down this path and in reading further, it there are other societal customs and issues peculiar to Japan. I cannot copy and paste more (Fair Use) but to paraphrase, the expectations placed on married couples to buy property (a stress directly placed on men because working mothers are scandalous) and the uncertain demands of in-laws is freaking out men. When they do marry, men will work 20 hours a day and so are on their own a great deal. Sangha had this right in his earlier post. Japan's problems are economic and that is driving people to re-evaluate marriage.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

And children with paper routes who turn over their $5 per week paycheck to their parents are also not "freeloaders" in their parent's homes. They're paying their way. Right?

Huh? You cannot compare working, childless adults to children working a paper route. Especially when single, childless people typically earn more and pay more taxes because they don't have 2.5 deductions to take.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

And yet, the "animals" in Japan have responded to the stimuli in a completely different manner than the "animals" in the other modern societies.

They're avoiding marriage and procreation in favor of money grubbing self-centeredness.

They're basically par for the course. :shrug:

Their reaction has just been a bit more extreme than most.

ANd you are now arguing that the US is in danger of a lack of promiscuous sex after claiming that the US is awash in promiscuous sex

"Promiscuous sex" is neither here nor there. You're missing the point.

Screwing around outside of relationships is really no more desirable than simply avoiding them entirely. In some ways, the latter might actually be preferable, simply because it is less liable to result in socially burdensome unwanted pregnancies or STDs.

The Japanese are not poor.

Did I say they were?

And I've proven that they do want to give up their careers. In fact, as the article I linked to show, a large majority of those women do not have any career. From the article:

Once again, you're making stuff up

Then they should be getting married if they're being honest about it being what they truly desire.

Why aren't they?

Here's a chart showing regular employment for single women. It shows regular employment for women declining dramatically, which is odd for a group that has chosen a career over marriage

a01002en_fig04.jpg

And? What do think this shows?
 
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Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

We are all ultimately only animals responding to external stimuli.

What sangha is pointing out is that there is not a deterministic path here. There is cultural moderation on the signal and response.

Japanese culture is very honor focused. This by itself is going to distort the response to the signal. The signal in Japan is tied to the economy - fewer jobs for salarymen means fewer able to live the salaryman ideal. I take sangha's point to be that America doesn't have to contend with those cultural vectors.

If it can happen to them, it could happen to us. In some ways, we are trending in that direction already with the rise of internet porn and the "failure to launch" culture.

Here's what I see going on and maybe this can reconcile the two viewpoints you guys are advancing. The rise of women's liberation in the US occurred much earlier than in Japan and our culture has been less rigid in response to every change that has happened. What we're seeing in Japan looks like what we're seeing in the US but the root causes differ. In Japan this issue is being driven by labor market changes rippling out into the sexual market place. In the US, the primary driver of this phenomenon is the advance of feminism and this is rippling out into the sexual market place. Feminism is taking root in Japan and the changes there are following the trajectory pioneered in the West, but that trajectory is shallower in effect and not as far advanced, so the effect size in Japan, while still present, is small and it's really labor market changes driving the issue there.

A lot of women simply don't want to give up their careers for the hassle of raising a family.

In Japan, it appears that a lot of women are willing to give up their careers but they need a salaryman in their life to make that happen. The guys who can't be salarymen are withdrawing from having to face what they see as failure and the women are not lowering their expectations.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Huh? You cannot compare working, childless adults to children working a paper route. Especially when single, childless people typically earn more and pay more taxes because they don't have 2.5 deductions to take.

The point here is to rebut your position that simply paying for school taxes means that they've paid their way. Making a contribution doesn't equal paying your way. A child with a paper route contributes to the family's finances but that doesn't mean that he's not still a financial cost for the family.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

I would suggest there are very few decent American women left out there to marry. It took me almost 25 years of searching to find one myself, and I ended up finding a wonderful hispanic woman. I hadn't found a caucasian woman who was even an option in the last 10-12 years. Some of us have certain expectations about what a wife is supposed to be and we're just not willing to compromise on those ideals.



I think you have to consider that, like many other things (such as your description of freedom below), your 'definition' of a decent woman is fairly unrealistic and few women would wish to fulfill it.

Tigger said:
Not at all. Freedom is for those who understand it must be constrained within boundaries and who have proven an ability and willingness to stay within them. It's not a wide open boundary, but there is some room to move.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

You claimed that "Most "modern" societies are failing in the same way Japan is."

Japan is failing, at least in part, because their singles are sexually inactive. Please prove your claim is correct by identifying those modern nations where singles are sexually inactive.

Unfruitful sexual activity is no different than not having sex at all. Your argument fails.

The simple fact of the matter is that virtually all "modern" industrialized nations are having problems relating to low birth rates, low marriage rates, and crumbling gender relations. That is the "failure" to which I alluded, not anything specifically having to do with sex.

Japan simply happens to be the most extreme case. It is not, however; necessarily inconceivable that the same could happen here.

IOW, you have chosen to put your material comfort above conforming to traditional gender roles. Just more evidence that those traditional values are a failure and your hypocrisy in criticizing society for not adhering to those traditions while refusing to adhere to those traditions yourself.

Who says I'm not adhering to them? The simple fact of the matter is that I'm broke and have nothing to offer at the time being. Women would be wise to avoid me, and I them until my circumstances improve.

Most Japanese men are not in my situation, but women are refusing to enter into relationships with them anyway; preferring to remain single to having to deal with the "hassle" of a man unless he happens to be wealthy in a manner which greatly exceeds the national average.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

I had posted it in an earlier thread where Gath ignored it. I have reposted it.



Japanese, and then claiming that Americans are doing the same thing to a lesser degree. However, as my links show, the Japanese culture is quite different.

I bet you're stunned to learn that different cultures are different! :lol:



Yep, that's his argument. Hilarious, ain't it.

I'll go find the link, thanks!

Indeed, I read most of that article he linked. The differences in culture are very great and so it's not a good comparison.

I cannot believe human beings would forgo intimacy, except that technology in Japan is enabling that. They escape to a private world because they have no livable privacy.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Good for you.



Yet you stated it was "learning by example." Lets not play semantics here.



Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that.



By getting sodomized in divorce court?

Boy, this one's a gift! LOL

Let's see: That's right....learning by example. I never said it was right, but I find it amusing that men are hypocritical enough to complain when women do the same things.

And understanding the definition of the words "seem" and "imply" would probably help you see that I was not putting words in your mouth but giving you my interpretation of your post.

As for the last, bitter much? And nothing like conveniently ignoring millenia of 'marital rape,' being treated like and sold as property, and being legally beaten in many societies.

If you wish to focus on the legal, how about the hundreds of yrs where women could be locked away in asylums at the word of their husband, own no property of their own, or retain custody of their own children?

LOL....good luck with that angle! :)
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

The point here is to rebut your position that simply paying for school taxes means that they've paid their way. Making a contribution doesn't equal paying your way. A child with a paper route contributes to the family's finances but that doesn't mean that he's not still a financial cost for the family.

Ridiculous. I already pointed out, they pay taxes at a higher rate than people with kids. Taxes which go to support services families use. The point at which they tip the scale is in retirement when they haven't produced workers to take their place, but in the meantime, they have paid at a greater rate into the tax system.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

I

It is women who usually complain about their 'image' through the media whereas men are generally secure and don't really care about that. This is an observation I'm making and not a complaint. Perhaps your attitude might change if the butt was usually women, or you might want to watch more closely..

I'm pretty sure that this thread is an indication that that is not especially true :)
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

I don't think the bolded is it at all. I think that men want someone who not only loves them, but likes them as well, and is willing to work at having a relationship, rather than running out the door at the first sign of trouble. My experience and observation over the past 35-40 years is that women are usually the party in a marriage that doesn't have what it takes to make it last. They give up easily, and they don't want to accept men as they are, but they do expect men to accept them as they are. It's very mixed signals.

Interesting. I find that it's pretty equal in terms of one or the other just not being content anymore. Women tend to become more independent and leave. Men tend to be 'comfortable' where they are and then just have affairs. Just from what I've seen and read tho.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Ridiculous. I already pointed out, they pay taxes at a higher rate than people with kids. Taxes which go to support services families use. The point at which they tip the scale is in retirement when they haven't produced workers to take their place, but in the meantime, they have paid at a greater rate into the tax system.

Did you just try to quantify procreation in fiscal terms?
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Typical feminist rhetoric, assuming men who've built buildings, established electrical wires, leaders in science, are jealous because women now dominate paper pushing human resource positions.

Jealous? What? Weird.

Some men just dont like losing control and power. THey feel that the successes of women diminished them. They dont like it if women are more successful than them and that affects many relationships where the women end up earning more $$, for example. It's amusing that you use women in human resources depts as an excuse for more women being successful.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Jealous? What? Weird.

Some men just dont like losing control and power. THey feel that the successes of women diminished them. They dont like it if women are more successful than them and that affects many relationships where the women end up earning more $$, for example. It's amusing that you use women in human resources depts as an excuse for more women being successful.

Oprah can make me her bitch any day. Just sayin'.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Reading further in your link, part of the problem is the Japanese business culture and social attitudes towards working mothers.


It would seem a portion of their problems come from trying to force the old model that Americans have long since shrugged off. If it were more acceptable for a woman to have a family AND work, they might not be headed down this path and in reading further, it there are other societal customs and issues peculiar to Japan. I cannot copy and paste more (Fair Use) but to paraphrase, the expectations placed on married couples to buy property (a stress directly placed on men because working mothers are scandalous) and the uncertain demands of in-laws is freaking out men. When they do marry, men will work 20 hours a day and so are on their own a great deal. Sangha had this right in his earlier post. Japan's problems are economic and that is driving people to re-evaluate marriage.

And? How does this differ significantly from the rest of the industrialized world?

Japan is an extreme case. I'll freely admit that. However, the pressures at play are very similar to what we have in the United States as well.

Even in our own country, more and more women are avoiding family and marriage in general because they believe the trade off simply isn't worth it. Motherhood is viewed as being a troublesome burden more than a blessing in modern culture; for many of the same reasons the article put forward (financial pressure, the stress of raising a family and working, ecta).

Frankly, when you look at the numbers, we're really not doing all that much better than Japan anyway.

Knocked Up and Knocked Down: Why America's widening fertility class divide is a problem.

Is having kids now a 'social failure'?

The Middle Class fertility rate in the United States is only 1.6, weeeeelll below anything even remotely resembling replacement levels.

Furthermore, more "progressive" nations like Sweden, which give their women more benefits to offset the challenges of childrearing, really fare no better.

Sweden Total fertility rate

Economics clearly are not the major driving force in this change so much as general attitudes and the degradation of the traditional gender dynamic. Women simply don't seem to view marriage and family as being the priority that they once did.

They are far more concerned with material advancement.
 
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Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

I cannot believe human beings would forgo intimacy, except that technology in Japan is enabling that. They escape to a private world because they have no livable privacy.

Which was my point. Technology is enabling many of the same things here.

It really isn't especially inconceivable that we could eventually wind up with many of the same problems if current trends continue.
 
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Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

It's about the problems for men that come along with marriage and kids in society today and their feelings and reactions towards those issues. Your preconceived notion that it was about "traditional gender roles" is completely and utterly unfounded, and furthermore, commenting on the contents, or worse, passing judgment on a book you never read is just flat out stupid. Lastly, the book was written a psychologist specializing in forensic issues and men's issues that was writing about what she learned directly from men themselves. She was at no point in time suggesting the problem was a desire for "traditional gender roles" nor was she supporting "traditional gender roles" in her arguments. Really, do not comment on books you have never read. It's stupid.

It's cute how outraged you still are. I didnt denigrate the book or even dismiss it. Quite the defensive post there.^^^^
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Oh and btw, there is little doubt many of your comments in this thread Lursa are sexist. The little attack on men you had in your unanswerable question was sexist and this crap about how anyone that complains wants to "return to traditional gender roles" or how they are unattractive is sexist bull****.

And yet you wont quote it and you wont answer it. Pretty funny.
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Of course I would, if I was ever in that situation. Now I would never marry a liberal woman, those are the ones that are not committed to a lifelong relationship. Every single conservative couple I've known has been married "until death do you part". I think if you get a divorce at all, you're doing it wrong.

You have GOT to be kidding me... every single CON couple you know??? Is that like 3? I can't swing a dead cat in Walters Oklahoma, or my own family and not hit a Divorced CON or three! Look at the GOP leadership, a house of divorced men. Divorce is a fact of life visited on all political leans...
 
Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

Here's a chart showing regular employment for single women. It shows regular employment for women declining dramatically, which is odd for a group that has chosen a career over marriage

a01002en_fig04.jpg

I dunno. Isn't basing a causation assumption on a single chart rather risky? Risky in the sense that it's not likely to be correct?

There could be a bunch of different reasons, other than marriage, for employment rates for unmarried women to fall. I'd think that more information would be needed to make that leap.
 
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