View Poll Results: Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

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  • Yes

    72 70.59%
  • No

    23 22.55%
  • Does not apply to me.

    7 6.86%
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Thread: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

  1. #711
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Yup. Some of the environmental stuff going on has a uniquely bad effect on men. Like your link says, we don't know everything in play, but there seem to be two major players from what I've read.

    1. High exposure to synthetic materials and hormones that either introduce more estrogen, cause testosterone to convert to estrogen at higher rates, or that synthesize directly into estrogen in the body.

    2. Obesity, which also leads to increases of conversion to estrogen.

    Both of these things are affecting people at all ages in the US, even children. The effect this has on women is extremely early puberty -- as much as 5 or 6 years younger than what is biologically normal. This has a negative affect on mental health and may also increase cancer risk. We won't know for sure for another 50 years.

    But the effects on men might well be even worse. It throws their entire systems out of whack, essentially subjecting men to a semi-"man-opausal" state very early in life. To what extent, again, we really don't know yet.

    But I'm not sure what this has to do with my post that you quoted. If we are to make a guess that young men today are likely to be living in a hormonally altered state somewhat similar to what older men normally would, they're still men.

    People are not simply their hormones, and even if they were, the balance even of an altered man is extremely different from that of a woman, and lacking other female hormones almost entirely.
    I wanted to make the point that a biological basis exists for making the claim that men today are not as "manly" as they were in the past, and it may not all be culturally induced.

    The cultural shift has been for females to take on more masculine roles, and for males to become more submissive and "feminine," in a word. What I'm bringing to light is that this cultural trend is mirrored and accompanied by a change in the average level of testosterone in men over the past few decades.

    It kind of makes me wonder if the cart is pushing the horse...

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    If given the chance to re-marry would you marry (another) American woman?

    Increasingly the answer is "no".

    Men are increasingly disrespected by American women. They face extreme economic and social disadvantages in family law that makes it possible for a wife to divorce them and take most of what they have including their children for any reason or no reason. They are constantly told that they are worthless and stupid. Disrespect for men has become standard practice. Men are disrespected by their wives – they’re disrespected publicly, they’re disrespected privately, they’re disrespected and then told that they have no right to be upset about it because they aren’t worthy of respect in the first place.

    Disrespect of men is a joke to Americans now.

    The result has been that men are increasingly dropping out of society. They don't marry, they don't go to college because they see no reason to break their humps to get ready to provide for a family -- they aren't going to be having a family.

    Lots has been written about this phenomena, most of it in the strain of "why is it that men are so childish now." But men are not dropping out because of arrested development. They are acting rationally in response to myriad laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century.

    Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters: Helen Smith: 9781594036750: Amazon.com: Books
    Thanks to you, my wife is now hysterical. She also coughed water all over the keyboard.

    She doesn't believe the men you are describing exist, and if they do they need to stop whining and strap on a pair.
    "Never before in modern history have we had a president-elect so ill-informed, ill-tempered, irrational and ill-equipped to deal with the major issues that face this country." Kareem Abdul Jabbar, 1/19/17

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I wanted to make the point that a biological basis exists for making the claim that men today are not as "manly" as they were in the past, and it may not all be culturally induced.

    The cultural shift has been for females to take on more masculine roles, and for males to become more submissive and "feminine," in a word. What I'm bringing to light is that this cultural trend is mirrored and accompanied by a change in the average level of testosterone in men over the past few decades.

    It kind of makes me wonder if the cart is pushing the horse...
    Only if we're assuming leaving the house or wearing pants is "masculine."

    But taking the biological approach to this, this doesn't make sense.

    Women have been hormonally hyper-feminized as well. So it doesn't make sense for women to be supposedly getting "more masculine" when they are having the same feminizing exposures that men are, and it's showing by the fact that they are experiencing puberty earlier.

    By your logic, women should be getting more "submissive" as well. Although I see no basis that being a doormat is an inherently "feminine" quality, rather than simply the quality of someone with no self-esteem, which is what we have been raising women to be for centuries in the West, after all.

    I think a much more reasonable explanation is that this is a weird time in the women's rights movement, where older women who remember severe sexism are still alive and exist in mens' families, and yet the younger women they're dealing with are more empowered. I think this creates a sense of shame in some younger men.

    Because my experience with it is that young men are still very beholden to the cold and silent machismo culture in most of their day-to-day lives, but something in them is triggered when it comes to dealing with women in specific capacities -- sexual and domestic, mostly. This shows no indication of being some sort of physiological issue, and it makes no sense that it would be. But it does have all the hallmarks of a psychological/sociological issue, and that would make sense given where we are in history.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Only if we're assuming leaving the house or wearing pants is "masculine."

    But taking the biological approach to this, this doesn't make sense.

    Women have been hormonally hyper-feminized as well. So it doesn't make sense for women to be supposedly getting "more masculine" when they are having the same feminizing exposures that men are, and it's showing by the fact that they are experiencing puberty earlier.

    By your logic, women should be getting more "submissive" as well. Although I see no basis that being a doormat is an inherently "feminine" quality, rather than simply the quality of someone with no self-esteem, which is what we have been raising women to be for centuries in the West, after all.

    I think a much more reasonable explanation is that this is a weird time in the women's rights movement, where older women who remember severe sexism are still alive and exist in mens' families, and yet the younger women they're dealing with are more empowered. I think this creates a sense of shame in some younger men.

    Because my experience with it is that young men are still very beholden to the cold and silent machismo culture in most of their day-to-day lives, but something in them is triggered when it comes to dealing with women in specific capacities -- sexual and domestic, mostly. This shows no indication of being some sort of physiological issue, and it makes no sense that it would be. But it does have all the hallmarks of a psychological/sociological issue, and that would make sense given where we are in history.
    An example of women becoming less feminine is how many women are now leaving their small children in daycare or with nannies and returning to work, whereas in the past they would have seen their primary responsibility as being the caretaker of their children.

    Another one is the growing number of women who don't want to have children, or who want fewer of them. The definition of femininity is that she is female to a high degree, and, biologically, the very definition of a female is she is the gender who bears and rears the children.

    Anyway, are you sure that bio-similar estrogen would cause early puberty? I know that puberty is occurring younger and younger for many girls, and I agree that this is not a good thing at all, but I haven't seen any reports as to what would case it.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sykes View Post
    Thanks to you, my wife is now hysterical. She also coughed water all over the keyboard.

    She doesn't believe the men you are describing exist, and if they do they need to stop whining and strap on a pair.
    Should we ask him to define what a "man" is? Could be interesting?
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    An example of women becoming less feminine is how many women are now leaving their small children in daycare or with nannies and returning to work, whereas in the past they would have seen their primary responsibility as being the caretaker of their children.

    Another one is the growing number of women who don't want to have children, or who want fewer of them. The definition of femininity is that she is female to a high degree, and, biologically, the very definition of a female is she is the gender who bears and rears the children.

    Anyway, are you sure that bio-similar estrogen would cause early puberty? I know that puberty is occurring younger and younger for many girls, and I agree that this is not a good thing at all, but I haven't seen any reports as to what would case it.
    Dude... that's how it's supposed to be.

    This idea of a completely isolated immediate familial unit is relatively new to human history. Babies used to be socialized by the entire tribe -- often while mommy was off gathering food. As a matter of fact, babies' brains are specifically designed to excel at meeting new people. Humans abandon their young more often than any other primate, and babies compensate for this by making themselves appealing even to non-familial people. They learn to schmooze before they even learn to lift their own heads.

    But regardless of the facts of the matter, you are equating the entirety of femininity with breeding continuously, locked away in a house somewhere. You have a frankly frightening idea of what is ok and healthy for human beings. And let's not forget, women are indeed human beings.

    Uh, yes, hormones are a trigger for puberty. Really, dude? And besides that, it isn't just synthetics. It is also increased internal production due to obesity.

  7. #717
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    How can someone be so incredibly ignorant as to write off over 150 million women as potential mates - almost all of whom they have never even met - strictly on the basis of their present country of residence?

    Obviously someone who is capable of demeaning people from sentient individuals into lumps of insignificant, human flesh.
    For the most part I agree and I would never want to be with someone who put nationality as such a high priority.

    On the other hand, the U.S. as a whole does have a prevailing culture, just like it does in France, or China, or anywhere else. If you choose an American women you are choosing someone who comes from a particular culture, one whose values you may or may not share.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Dude... that's how it's supposed to be.

    This idea of a completely isolated immediate familial unit is relatively new to human history. Babies used to be socialized by the entire tribe -- often while mommy was off gathering food.
    Is this comment supposed to be an argument in support of the modern practice of day care? The people in the tribe who occasionally cared for children when the mother didn't actually have the child strapped to her or accompanying her, were a close kinship group. Modern day-care is nothing of the kind. Mothers didn't hand their children off to strangers from another tribe.

    As for socialization, it wasn't the tribe that was the agent of socialization, it was, as is the case today, mostly parents, relatives and same age peers-playmates. The village chief or medicine man wasn't socializing the kids. When the children got older, then they began to interact more with adults, just like present-day kids get socialized at schools by teachers and by their swimming coaches or dance teachers.

    I'm not getting your point. Why is this relevant?

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Dude... that's how it's supposed to be.

    This idea of a completely isolated immediate familial unit is relatively new to human history. Babies used to be socialized by the entire tribe -- often while mommy was off gathering food. As a matter of fact, babies' brains are specifically designed to excel at meeting new people. Humans abandon their young more often than any other primate, and babies compensate for this by making themselves appealing even to non-familial people. They learn to schmooze before they even learn to lift their own heads.
    Do you have any links to support this claim?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    But regardless of the facts of the matter, you are equating the entirety of femininity with breeding continuously, locked away in a house somewhere. You have a frankly frightening idea of what is ok and healthy for human beings. And let's not forget, women are indeed human beings.
    What's OK and healthy is whatever she decides is OK and healthy for her. Let's not confuse the issue. Nonetheless, if a woman chooses to prioritize breadwinning over child-rearing then that is a shift from a feminine to a more traditionally masculine role. Remember the definition of a female: of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring.

    If a female chooses to explore the non-feminine aspects of her humanity then that's fine, but let's not muddy up the issue and let's continue to call a spade a spade.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Uh, yes, hormones are a trigger for puberty. Really, dude? And besides that, it isn't just synthetics. It is also increased internal production due to obesity.
    "Hormones" covers a lot of ground. I asked about phytoestrogens specifically.

    I also wonder about the effects of birth control pills on female hormone levels.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Is this comment supposed to be an argument in support of the modern practice of day care? The people in the tribe who occasionally cared for children when the mother didn't actually have the child strapped to her or accompanying her, were a close kinship group. Modern day-care is nothing of the kind. Mothers didn't hand their children off to strangers from another tribe.

    As for socialization, it wasn't the tribe that was the agent of socialization, it was, as is the case today, mostly parents, relatives and same age peers-playmates. The village chief or medicine man wasn't socializing the kids. When the children got older, then they began to interact more with adults, just like present-day kids get socialized at schools by teachers and by their swimming coaches or dance teachers.

    I'm not getting your point. Why is this relevant?
    And kids today mostly see the same kids and adults repeatedly at such places. It's certainly more formal, but not all that different. The kid doesn't know whether they share DNA or not, and really doesn't care.

    I suppose it isn't relevant; I just can't stand ignorance.

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