View Poll Results: Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

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  • Yes

    72 70.59%
  • No

    23 22.55%
  • Does not apply to me.

    7 6.86%
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Thread: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

  1. #701
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    For those who posted to pour scorn on men as "whining" about the way men are being treated in American society, you're just proving my point, are you not?

    To be clear, the OP was not a call to order a bride from Russia or turn to other foreign women. The main point was the way men are being treated and regarded in American society. If you claim not to know what I'm referring to then you are being willfully blind and disenginious. The discussion started with marriage because marriage is the locus of many of the legal and societal sanctions against men, and American women are particularly inclined to take full advantage of the lack of fairness, even regarding it as their birthright. Which is why so many men are voting with their feet and avoiding the roles of husband, father, and provider.

    It goes far, far beyond male dissatisfaction over the loss of traditional male roles and into the realm of unreasonable hatred and bigotry being directed toward men for no more than being men. Legal sanctions against men and disrespect of men are also strong on college campuses, and so we have seen a drop in male enrollment.

    But it starts even earlier than that, with boys being shunted to alternative schools and drugged for acting like boys instead of like girls, which is what teachers, which are almost all women, prefer. It isn't any wonder that by they time they leave high school many young men have had their fill of academe.
    Nope, not in the least. It is unsurprising that PEOPLE, women or men, would not want to date someone who talks about them like objects and believes they're all in cahoots against them, rather than looking within for the reason they might be having issues.

    I am perfectly well aware of issues affecting men, and I have written about them extensively on DP, to the chagrin of most liberals, and to the speechless confusion of most conservatives. But almost every time you see someone whining about how it's all a feminist conspiracy, it's a guy who need look no further than his mirror to see the source of his problems.

    There is no "hatred" of men on a larger social level. This is a society whose current incarnation of feminism is essentially no different from the 1950's (they just call it "crunchy earth mother" instead of "Stepford wife"). There is institutional bigotry against men, but this is a result of patriarchy, not feminism -- after all, it isn't feminism that believes women are incapable of supporting themselves, now is it.

    We drug girls too. We just drug them with downers instead of uppers. We send them to a different kind of prison, called mental hospitals. Our homogenization of children affects both sexes.

    Your inability to see how these issues affect both sexes -- and this is a common growing pain at the mid-way point of any civil rights movement -- is the problem here. You have a comic book view of reality in which women are evil villains, and that simply is not reality.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    You haven't provided evidence,
    Nice lie.

    most Japanese women don't have any professional pursuits
    Sure they do. Nearly 70% of Japanese women have jobs, which they apparently prefer to either marriage or motherhood.

    and having large #'s single adults despising sex is not universal
    I never claimed that it was.

    In that case, every nation except a few Arabic nations are "post-feminist"
    And India, and most of Africa, and the non-urban parts of China, etca, etca.

    All told, I'd say that probably most of the human race is not yet "post-feminist." Japan is actually well ahead of curve.

    Already posted the proof and your claim is just another invention of yours
    How do you figure?

    A record 21.6 million millennials live with Mom and Dad

    Nope
    Yes. They are stigmatized.

    My source said as much.

    Prove otherwise.

    Yeah, people are having more sex which means more people despise sex and are sexually inactive
    How much more sex do you think everyone was having back when it was the cultural norm to marry in one's teens or early twenties rather than their later twenties or thirties?

    Again, promiscuity really only benefits the hyper-desirable anyway. Most people fare far better in committed relationships as far as sexual intimacy is concerned.

    Neither of us believe it.
    Good to know, though it is inconsistent with your belief system.

    *Yawn* We have already agreed that the marriage rate has dropped.
    And it has dropped primarily because women are selecting against it, favoring professional pursuits (no matter how limited) instead.

    Japanese women are increasingly passing up marriage

    Chikako Ogura, professor of gender studies at Waseda University in Tokyo, draws little comfort from government proposals to reverse the trend, such as adding child-care facilities and prodding employers to grant maternity leave.

    The critical problem is that people aren't getting married at all. Young women have jobs and reject a marriage that won't deliver a more comfortable life, she says. Studies show men spend on average less than 10 minutes a day on housework while working women put in two hours.

    "Women are looking for a marital partner who'll allow them to do whatever they want. They want a marriage that's perfect, economically and mentally. There aren't that many men who can offer that," Ogura said. "And they're all taken."
    Once again, and with emphasis, if they wanted to be married, they would be.

    *Sigh*

    And we have another example of you posting an article that contradicts what you said. For one thing, it only shows the last several years. As the chart I posted shows, if you go back to the 80's the rate was much higher. In addition, your own article states
    And? So what?

    Japan has been in a state of recession since the late 1980s, of course employment is down. This is true of men and women alike.

    It doesn't change the fact that women still seem to prefer even temporary employment over marriage.

    Your own link does not support your belief that these women have careers or their attitude towards work represents a societal shift.
    No, but this link, which you have so conveniently ignored, most certainly does.

    Japanese women are increasingly passing up marriage

    Chikako Ogura, professor of gender studies at Waseda University in Tokyo, draws little comfort from government proposals to reverse the trend, such as adding child-care facilities and prodding employers to grant maternity leave.

    The critical problem is that people aren't getting married at all. Young women have jobs and reject a marriage that won't deliver a more comfortable life, she says. Studies show men spend on average less than 10 minutes a day on housework while working women put in two hours.

    "Women are looking for a marital partner who'll allow them to do whatever they want. They want a marriage that's perfect, economically and mentally. There aren't that many men who can offer that," Ogura said. "And they're all taken."
    You were saying?

    This is just like how you read a quote that spoke about Japan being so crowded and lacking privacy and claiming that all it spoke about was technology. You just don't see anything that contradicts your beliefs.


    They aren't buying new apts. They live at home with their parents. Remember?
    Again, prove it.

    Your own source shows that the vast majority of the single men who are going unmarried in Japan make between 2-6 million yen each year.

    How does that compare to costs of living? How does it compare to the costs of raising a family?

    Why do you keep evading this question?

    If you're going to claim that the men make enough to support a family, in spite of all the posted evidence that they do not, then feel free to do your own research
    Nope. You claimed that they do not have enough money to support families. No hard evidence has so far been presented to support this claim.

    It is on you to prove it.

    No, they're the worst.
    Prove it.

    Poverty is measured by household income.
    Which is exactly why I do not own a "household." I would be impoverished.

    It was the link that *you* posted that said crowding played a role!!

    Your argument is so inane that now you're arguing that your own sources are wrong.
    When and where?
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 02-26-14 at 11:39 PM.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    yes - men are the true victims here in America......victims....
    He is correct that our academic system is currently set up to advantage girls over boys. Which is not least of the reasons why girls are outperforming boys at it.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    When exactly, after 2100?
    Unless the boomers live forever, in about 15-20 years
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Sure they do. Nearly 70% of Japanese women have jobs, which they apparently prefer to either marriage or motherhood.
    The majority have low paying jobs that are often temp jobs. Not careers and they prefer to be married

    I never claimed that it was.
    Sure you did. You even posted some stat about how people in the US are not having sex.

    And India, and most of Africa, and the non-urban parts of China, etca, etca.
    Wrong. There are women CEO's in India, China and Africa.

    How do you figure?
    Unlike you, correctly

    How much more sex do you think everyone was having back when it was the cultural norm to marry in one's teens or early twenties rather than their later twenties or thirties?

    Again, promiscuity really only benefits the hyper-desirable anyway. Most people fare far better in committed relationships as far as sexual intimacy is concerned.
    According to what you've said in other threads, more people are having more promiscuous sex. I believe the term you used was "epidemic"


    And it has dropped primarily because women are selecting against it, favoring professional pursuits (no matter how limited) instead.
    No, it's dropped because the men are not fulfilling their part of the bargain by making enough money to be the provider

    Once again, and with emphasis, if they wanted to be married, they would be.
    If you wanted to be married, you would be too. Obviously, you have given up on the traditional values you claim to support.

    And? So what?

    Japan has been in a state of recession since the late 1980s, of course employment is down. This is true of men and women alike.

    It doesn't change the fact that women still seem to prefer even temporary employment over marriage.
    Wrong again. I posted the facts which show that they prefer marriage.

    No, but this link, which you have so conveniently ignored, most certainly does.

    Japanese women are increasingly passing up marriage

    You were saying?
    That quote confirms what I've been saying. The men are failing by not being able to be the provider.

    This is just like how you read a quote that spoke about Japan being so crowded and lacking privacy and claiming that all it spoke about was technology. You just don't see anything that contradicts your beliefs.

    Your own source shows that the vast majority of the single men who are going unmarried in Japan make between 2-6 million yen each year.

    How does that compare to costs of living? How does it compare to the costs of raising a family?

    Why do you keep evading this question?
    I've answered it several times. Those men can't even afford to date.




    Nope. You claimed that they do not have enough money to support families. No hard evidence has so far been presented to support this claim.

    It is on you to prove it.
    It's been proven. Now it's on you to refute it

    Prove it.
    I posted the quote showing that they're the worst on gender equality.


    Which is exactly why I do not own a "household." I would be impoverished.
    But you're not impoverished. And neither are the vast majority of Japanese who aren't getting married


    When and where?
    It was a quote from a link that you posted, and Gina quoted from
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    He is correct that our academic system is currently set up to advantage girls over boys. Which is not least of the reasons why girls are outperforming boys at it.
    That's true.

    It's unfair that the system unfairly rewards intelligence and hard work when it should reward self-indulgent whining.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    That's true.

    It's unfair that the system unfairly rewards intelligence and hard work when it should reward self-indulgent whining.
    And yet we still see that boys outscore girls on objective tests and there is a divergence between test scores and letter grades. If they're both supposed to be measuring content mastery, then something is amiss. If grades measure busy work, and girls are more compliant in terms of completing busy work than boys, which they are, then this goes a long way to explaining why we see girls earning higher grades and boys scoring higher on objective tests.

    So now the question becomes, how much should we reward busy work?

    Worries about the declining academic performance of boys, a topic of increasing alarm this past decade, have intensified recently. It seems that boys are being judged both unduly harshly and leniently at school. A new study on gender disparities in elementary-school performance — the first study to examine both objective and subjective performance — found that boys were given lower grades than girls, even in cases (such as math and science) where their test scores were either equal to or higher than the girls’ test scores.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Nope, not in the least. It is unsurprising that PEOPLE, women or men, would not want to date someone who talks about them like objects and believes they're all in cahoots against them, rather than looking within for the reason they might be having issues.

    I am perfectly well aware of issues affecting men, and I have written about them extensively on DP, to the chagrin of most liberals, and to the speechless confusion of most conservatives. But almost every time you see someone whining about how it's all a feminist conspiracy, it's a guy who need look no further than his mirror to see the source of his problems.

    There is no "hatred" of men on a larger social level. This is a society whose current incarnation of feminism is essentially no different from the 1950's (they just call it "crunchy earth mother" instead of "Stepford wife"). There is institutional bigotry against men, but this is a result of patriarchy, not feminism -- after all, it isn't feminism that believes women are incapable of supporting themselves, now is it.

    We drug girls too. We just drug them with downers instead of uppers. We send them to a different kind of prison, called mental hospitals. Our homogenization of children affects both sexes.

    Your inability to see how these issues affect both sexes -- and this is a common growing pain at the mid-way point of any civil rights movement -- is the problem here. You have a comic book view of reality in which women are evil villains, and that simply is not reality.

    Fun fact: Testosterone levels in males are down significantly (20 percent) since the 1980's, and it's not aging related.

    Men really ARE becoming more like women.




    As Reuters reported in 2006:

    A new study has found a “substantial” drop in U.S. men’s testosterone levels since the 1980s, but the reasons for the decline remain unclear. This trend also does not appear to be related to age.

    The average levels of the male hormone dropped by 1 percent a year, Dr. Thomas Travison and colleagues from the New England Research Institutes in Watertown, Massachusetts, found. This means that, for example, a 65-year-old man in 2002 would have testosterone levels 15 percent lower than those of a 65-year-old in 1987. This also means that a greater proportion of men in 2002 would have had below-normal testosterone levels than in 1987.

    “The entire population is shifting somewhat downward we think,” Travison told Reuters Health. “We’re counting on other studies to confirm this.”

    Travison and his team analyzed data from the Massachusetts Male Aging Study, a long-term investigation of aging in about 1,700 Boston-area men. Data from the men were collected for three time intervals: 1987-1989, 1995-1997, and 2002-2004.

    ***

    The researchers observed a speedier decline in average testosterone levels than would have been expected with aging alone.

    ***

    It’s likely that some sort of environmental exposure is responsible for the testosterone decline, Travison said, although he said attempting to explain what this might be based on the current findings would be “pure conjecture.”

    Men’s Health wrote in 2007:

    In the summer of 2006, Travison attended an Endocrine Society meeting where another researcher, Antti Perheentupa M.D., Ph.D., from the University of Turku, in Finland, presented evidence of a similar decline. The Finnish results suggested the change was happening among younger men, too. A man born in 1970 had about 20 percent less testosterone at age 35 than a man of his father’s generation at the same age. “When I saw another group reproducing our results,” says Travison, “that was convincing to me that we were seeing a true biological change over time, as opposed to just some measurement error.”

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Unless the boomers live forever, in about 15-20 years
    Well, that's an estimate you clearly just pulled out of the ether.

    Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]-ind_1a-jpg

    Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]-chart-1-jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    they prefer to be married
    Then they would be married. We've been over this.

    Sure you did. You even posted some stat about how people in the US are not having sex
    I posted a source showing that 50% of single persons had not had sex in the last year.

    Convincing random individuals to have sex with them tends to be somewhat difficult for most people.

    Who'da thunk it, huh?

    Unlike you, correctly
    i.e. Not at all.

    Again, how does it compute to you that record numbers of young adults living at home does not equate to more young Americans living at home?

    A record 21.6 million millennials live with Mom and Dad

    I'm curious, really.

    According to what you've said in other threads, more people are having more promiscuous sex. I believe the term you used was "epidemic"
    Yes, promiscuous sex. Sexual activity in general, however; tends to be more common within marriage and committed relationships than outside of them.

    Only a ridiculously tiny minority of the most extremely "desirable" persons in a given population can come anywhere near remotely close to matching married or relationship numbers while single.

    No, it's dropped because the men are not fulfilling their part of the bargain by making enough money to be the provider
    Prove this is the case. My source says it is mostly due to them simply having unrealistic expectations for the institution and not wishing to be burdened with running a household when they can remain economically independent instead.

    The Seattle Times: Nation & World: Japanese women are increasingly passing up marriage

    Chikako Ogura, professor of gender studies at Waseda University in Tokyo, draws little comfort from government proposals to reverse the trend, such as adding child-care facilities and prodding employers to grant maternity leave.

    The critical problem is that people aren't getting married at all. Young women have jobs and reject a marriage that won't deliver a more comfortable life, she says. Studies show men spend on average less than 10 minutes a day on housework while working women put in two hours.

    "Women are looking for a marital partner who'll allow them to do whatever they want. They want a marriage that's perfect, economically and mentally. There aren't that many men who can offer that," Ogura said. "And they're all taken."
    Unless you feel like proving these men are all so desperately broke as to be completely unable to handle a family otherwise, your argument here is effectively bunk.

    If you wanted to be married, you would be too.
    And I have said as much, repeatedly.

    Wrong again. I posted the facts which show that they prefer marriage.
    Wrong again. The only fact which matters here is the reality that they are not getting married.

    They clearly do not desire marriage as much as they claim.

    That quote confirms what I've been saying. The men are failing by not being able to be the provider.
    No, it shows that women are failing to conform to social norms they find to be excessively distasteful.

    Their overly high standards are simply a convenient excuse.

    This is just like how you read a quote that spoke about Japan being so crowded and lacking privacy and claiming that all it spoke about was technology.
    You still have as yet to demonstrate the relevance of that factor.

    I mentioned technology because it provided an alternative to human contact.

    Those men can't even afford to date.
    Prove it. They make 2 to 6 million dollars a year.

    Why is that "not enough" to date?

    According to at least one study I have already posted, many men who can afford to date and marry (40%, as a matter of fact) simply prefer not to.

    It's been proven. Now it's on you to refute it
    Not even close, and that is not how burden of proof works.

    You claimed that they cannot afford to date and marry.

    Provide data backing this claim, or concede the point.

    I posted the quote showing that they're the worst on gender equality.
    Did you now? Let's see.

    Female CEOs signal change at Japan firms

    Women account for fewer than 0.8% of the CEOs at Japanese companies that have shares listed on the stock market. In the USA, women head nine (1.8%) of the Fortune 500 companies.

    • Japan ranks well below average — No. 38 out of 58 countries studied — in providing economic opportunities to women, according to a recent study by the World Economic Forum. (The USA ranked No. 17, and Sweden was No. 1.)

    • Women are the top executives at just 5.64% of all registered Japanese companies, a percentage that has been rising but at an excruciating pace — from 5.53% in 2000, according to the research firm Teikoku Databank.

    • Just 3% of Japanese companies have a woman on their boards, vs. more than 86% for U.S. companies, according to Corporate Women Directors International, a non-profit organization dedicated to getting more women on corporate boards. The 27 Japanese companies in the Fortune Global 200 last year had just three female directors — 0.7% of their total directors, lowest in the world.
    "Below average" is equal to "worst?"

    I think not. I also do not see the term "gender equality" mentioned once in this entire excerpt.

    How about you stop alluding to things which aren't there?

    But you're not impoverished.
    I could afford neither food, shelter, nor clothing even for myself on my current income, let alone a wife, or a child.

    Please, tell me how I am not "impoverished."

    And neither are the vast majority of Japanese who aren't getting married
    They are not. I am glad to see you admit it.

    Now, prove that the situation of the average unmarried man who makes 2-6 million yen a year is in any way comparable to my own.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    That's true.

    It's unfair that the system unfairly rewards intelligence and hard work when it should reward self-indulgent whining.


    Would you care to prove that women are more "intelligent" than men?

    Edit:

    Nevermind. Looks like RiverDad already called you on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    And yet we still see that boys outscore girls on objective tests and there is a divergence between test scores and letter grades. If they're both supposed to be measuring content mastery, then something is amiss. If grades measure busy work, and girls are more compliant in terms of completing busy work than boys, which they are, then this goes a long way to explaining why we see girls earning higher grades and boys scoring higher on objective tests.

    So now the question becomes, how much should we reward busy work?

    Worries about the declining academic performance of boys, a topic of increasing alarm this past decade, have intensified recently. It seems that boys are being judged both unduly harshly and leniently at school. A new study on gender disparities in elementary-school performance — the first study to examine both objective and subjective performance — found that boys were given lower grades than girls, even in cases (such as math and science) where their test scores were either equal to or higher than the girls’ test scores.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 02-27-14 at 02:21 AM.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Fun fact: Testosterone levels in males are down significantly (20 percent) since the 1980's, and it's not aging related.

    Men really ARE becoming more like women.

    As Reuters reported in 2006:

    A new study has found a “substantial” drop in U.S. men’s testosterone levels since the 1980s, but the reasons for the decline remain unclear. This trend also does not appear to be related to age.

    The average levels of the male hormone dropped by 1 percent a year, Dr. Thomas Travison and colleagues from the New England Research Institutes in Watertown, Massachusetts, found. This means that, for example, a 65-year-old man in 2002 would have testosterone levels 15 percent lower than those of a 65-year-old in 1987. This also means that a greater proportion of men in 2002 would have had below-normal testosterone levels than in 1987.

    “The entire population is shifting somewhat downward we think,” Travison told Reuters Health. “We’re counting on other studies to confirm this.”

    Travison and his team analyzed data from the Massachusetts Male Aging Study, a long-term investigation of aging in about 1,700 Boston-area men. Data from the men were collected for three time intervals: 1987-1989, 1995-1997, and 2002-2004.

    ***

    The researchers observed a speedier decline in average testosterone levels than would have been expected with aging alone.

    ***

    It’s likely that some sort of environmental exposure is responsible for the testosterone decline, Travison said, although he said attempting to explain what this might be based on the current findings would be “pure conjecture.”

    Men’s Health wrote in 2007:

    In the summer of 2006, Travison attended an Endocrine Society meeting where another researcher, Antti Perheentupa M.D., Ph.D., from the University of Turku, in Finland, presented evidence of a similar decline. The Finnish results suggested the change was happening among younger men, too. A man born in 1970 had about 20 percent less testosterone at age 35 than a man of his father’s generation at the same age. “When I saw another group reproducing our results,” says Travison, “that was convincing to me that we were seeing a true biological change over time, as opposed to just some measurement error.”
    Yup. Some of the environmental stuff going on has a uniquely bad effect on men. Like your link says, we don't know everything in play, but there seem to be two major players from what I've read.

    1. High exposure to synthetic materials and hormones that either introduce more estrogen, cause testosterone to convert to estrogen at higher rates, or that synthesize directly into estrogen in the body.

    2. Obesity, which also leads to increases of conversion to estrogen.

    Both of these things are affecting people at all ages in the US, even children. The effect this has on women is extremely early puberty -- as much as 5 or 6 years younger than what is biologically normal. This has a negative affect on mental health and may also increase cancer risk. We won't know for sure for another 50 years.

    But the effects on men might well be even worse. It throws their entire systems out of whack, essentially subjecting men to a semi-"man-opausal" state very early in life. To what extent, again, we really don't know yet.

    But I'm not sure what this has to do with my post that you quoted. If we are to make a guess that young men today are likely to be living in a hormonally altered state somewhat similar to what older men normally would, they're still men.

    People are not simply their hormones, and even if they were, the balance even of an altered man is extremely different from that of a woman, and lacking other female hormones almost entirely.

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