They can have positive and negative 'reinforcement.'
The phrase 'they cannot be enforced' still remains accurate. Because even with a consequence, you cannot insist on or coerce compliance. The 'codes' are not mandatory.
(I'm bored, obviously)
It simply happens to be the case that it does not "work" when it comes to bringing about long term relationships, or engendering healthy ideas of gender relations.
Not to the same extent my generation does.We all did that in my earlier days too, it's not new.
American Psychological Association - Sexual Hook-Up Culture
NY Times - The End of Courtship?
I can personally attest to the impacts of both phenomena on inter-gender interaction in the twenty something age group.
While I have "hung out" plenty of times, I haven't been on a single "date" since High School. Most women I know would look at me like I had three heads if I were to even suggest such a thing.
It simply isn't done.
Online dating can provide an alternative, but even that is a bit of a non-starter if you're looking for something serious and don't have the economic assets available to make yourself desirable to "serious minded" women.
I don't know how else to say this, but the simple fact of the matter is that women are shallow when it comes to this kind of thing. They're not looking for a guy with student loan debt up to his eye-balls and an income of less than 20K a year when it comes to dating.
Which, in case you haven't noticed, is pretty much exactly what we have been talking about. Women are putting serious relationships off, and so are men, which has resulted in depressed marriage and birth rates across the board.There are a million ways to meet people and it's not a secret. If 'that generation' CHOOSES to rely on a method that doesnt work...good, maybe they wont reproduce.
Uh-huh.Get over the excuses...has nothing to do with money once you know someone thru a group or organization and arent just a body in a bar. Money matters alot less when you actually know the person. You are so full of excuses it's pathetic.
That's exactly the point.
A lot of women have stopped behaving as society believes women should, so a lot of men have returned the favor by ceasing to behave as society thinks men should.Why is that? Why do they choose to do this? It is, after all, THEIR choice. If it's economically based, that does not have anything to do with women choosing careers before marriage. If it's a general principle, checking out of society is on them and they can have their principles to keep them warm at night. What you have done is make the case that these men have a problem they are creating for themselves and they are blaming women.
Turnabout is fair play, you know. I fail to see why this is such a hard concept to comprehend.
Do you think the whole "tough as nails" / "stiff upper lip" / "competitive killer" role men are expected to fill is any more fun for us than the "brood mare" archetype you have made such a point of complaining about where women are concerned?
From a strictly objective standpoint, why should men hold up "their end of the bargain" if women are not going to do the same?
Who's complaining? It is what it is. I'm simply explaining why many men feel the way they do.Either a guy wants a relationship and he puts the work in to find one, or he sits around complaining there are no good women falling into his lap while he's sitting around complaining about bending over backwards to find one.
As far as my own situation is concerned, I've come to accept the fact that even trying to look for a "good woman" at this phase of my life is a waste of time. They're few and far between, and the kind that would actually be interested in the same things I am would be turned off by my financial and professional circumstances anyway.
What's a guy to do?
Wait a few years until things improve (and hopefully women grow up a bit) and then come back to try again, I suppose.
And you don't think that our sky-high divorce rate and the abundance of women out there running off with "half" (before requiring men to pay for children they're probably not even going to be allowed to ever see again forever afterwards) might not play a role in that decision?Divorce is another topic. The topic of this thread is marrying American women, with a side debate on why some men won't even look for one.
Last edited by Gathomas88; 02-26-14 at 08:20 PM.
OK, let's get this thread back on track. The attitudes and socialization American women are subjected to with regards to sex, men, women's sexuality, etc.
Here is an advice columnist spouting conventional wisdom to men, followed by the male rebuttal to that advice. For those reading along, enjoy the ride.
Male Loser in Love, writes: I’m 22 years old and over the summer I dated this girl I fell in love with. But it wasn’t a 50/50 relationship. I seemed to be doing most of the work. So, one night about three months in, I confronted her about it. She was ready to end it there because she told me that “the spark was gone.” And that she “wasn’t feeling it anymore.” Obviously, it hurt, and I told her to give it more time to see if we could jump-start and reboot the relationship. She said she knew it wasn’t gonna work, but my wish was granted. . . . .
Dear Wendy responds: And though I wish I could tell you that time and absence will make her heart grow fonder, the truth is it probably won’t. Because the thing with 20-year-old girls is that 80% of the time, they don’t go for the guy who takes a bus six hours so they don’t have to drive home alone and they don’t go for the guy who sends them rice pilaf in the mail or the guy whom their moms are crazy about. They go for the guys who ignore them and cheat on them and break their hearts. Not always, of course, but a lot of the time.
And for a while, it seems like no one is happy because guys like you are pining away for girls like your ex and those kinds of girls are pining away for someone else and everyone is sad and a little lonely and wishing they could just love the people who already love them back. The good news is that eventually the 20-year-old girls turn into 25-, 30-, 35-year-old women and they’re tired of longing for the guys who don’t treat them well. And they long for the kind of guy who will go on a family vacation with them and help them move and bring them their favorite food. And you’re going to be in luck when that happens because you’re going to have your pick of the litter. In about 5 years or so, the kind of girl you like is going to be looking for someone exactly like YOU. And then it’s all just going to be a matter of timing to find the right match.
I know that doesn’t help you much now. It doesn’t do much to soothe your broken heart and make you feel less alone. And the only thing I can say to that is that it WILL get better. As long as you remain the sweet, thoughtful guy you are — the kind of guy moms love and girls want as their “friend,” it won’t be too long before they’re going to want so much more than that. And who knows, maybe you’ll get lucky and you’ll find the rare breed of young woman who has no interest in dumb games and already understands the value of a guy who wants nothing more than to be a great boyfriend.
And now here is the response to the female point of view that guys are lucky to be awarded the prize of a used and abused woman at the tail end of her sexual attractiveness:
This has been said a thousand times around these parts, but I’m pointing it out again:
If you are decent guy, most everybody expects you to get **** on romantically and just take the lumps for a decade, then get the used-up, washed-out, emotionally-wrecked left-overs of the assholes’ pillaging.
Wendy just dismisses this, like it’s just the way it is. There’s no condemnation of the attitude, no real thought as to how thoroughly poisonous this is.
Does nobody else think there’s something disastrously wrong with this attitude?
Does nobody realize what a destructive message this sends to young men?
Does anybody even care?
How can we just casually accept that anti-social assholes get the prize, while the decent, honest builders and maintainers of civilization get the dregs, if they’re lucky?
This is how civilization dies, tiny cut, by tiny cut. . . . .
If you learn nothing else of economics, of politics, of sociology, of psychology but this one fact, you have more understanding than most of the fools with doctorates and fancy titles. If you never get anything else from this blog, remember that phrase:
You get what you incentivize.
If you incentivize douchebaggery, you get douches. If you incentivize decency, you get decency. If being a decent fellow gets you a broken heart and being a douche gets you blown by young co-eds, any rational man is going to be douche.
So, we have more douches who fail to do do anything useful for civilization because who cares? when being an ass is enough to get you sex. We have fewer decent guys willing to pick up the burden of civilization because all it gets you is heartache and loneliness.
Thus, civilization dies as parasitism becomes the norm. . . .
So, to men here’s the warning: if you’re a decent, commitment-minded man, don’t ever commit to a woman over 30, and be wary of committing to a woman over 25. She had her chance when she was young; she chose some asshole over you (or some other decent fellow like you) to give her youth to, why should you waste yourself on her now that its gone and she’s desperate.
No matter how much your girlfriend begs for commitment, no matter how much your mother pesters you for grandchildren, no matter how much shaming older women heap upon you, no matter how much your pastor demands you man-up, do not marry an older woman. They are simply not worth it.
If you want commitment go for those young women who are decent enough, smart enough, and love civilization enough to find a decent guy and marry young.
Are you sensing some bitterness there? It doesn't seem that these men are really very eager to wait out there 20s and 30s to get the prize women want to give them.
In that case, every nation except a few Arabic nations are "post-feminist"If concepts like "female CEOs" exist at all, it is a "post-feminist" society.
Already posted the proof and your claim is just another invention of yoursProof?
Besides, there are plenty of people who do that in the United States as well, and it is only becoming more common as time goes by.
NopeThey're being mocked and ridiculed as being "herbivores."
Yeah, people are having more sex which means more people despise sex and are sexually inactiveNot at all. It goes back to what River Dad was discussing earlier with the "sexual market place." In the post- Sexual Revolution world, promiscuity is now an option available to pretty much everyone.
This doesn't change the fact that promiscuous sex outside of marriage is now more common than it was in the past across the board, even if a sizeable portion of population is essentially being "left behind."
Neither of us believe it, so you should stop making arguments that neither of us believe.So? You believe it. The logic still stands.
If you believe it to be an issue in one country, it stands to reason that it would be an issue in the other as well.
I know. You believe in traditional values like valuing marriage over a career, except that you don't believe in traditional values.As I've also said, I DON'T WANT TO BE MARRIED. That's exactly the point.
Odd. Try this instead.
More Japanese women are working—but for the economy to thrive they need to be running things[quote]
And we have another example of you posting an article that contradicts what you said. For one thing, it only shows the last several years. As the chart I posted shows, if you go back to the 80's the rate was much higher. In addition, your own article states
Your own link does not support your belief that these women have careers or their attitude towards work represents a societal shift.For one, these jobs could be temporary; the Japanese government data don’t specify whether these new working women are housewives who have taken on part-time work. Female labor participation often jumps when real wages fall (pdf, p.3), says Credit Suisse. That could mean households are simply reacting to inflation. If the jump in employment is in mostly unskilled sectors, where workers are fungible, it wouldn’t signal a societal shift.
This is just like how you read a quote that spoke about Japan being so crowded and lacking privacy and claiming that all it spoke about was technology. You just don't see anything that contradicts your beliefs.
That only goes back ten years. Go back thirty and the rate has decreased.Female work force participation rates are increasing.
They aren't buying new apts. They live at home with their parents. Remember?Considering the kind of crap Westerners try to pull with this argument all the time...
"I couldn't possibly afford a family right now! I just moved into a new apartment and bought a new car!"
If you're going to claim that the men make enough to support a family, in spite of all the posted evidence that they do not, then feel free to do your own researchEvasion. What are the costs of living in Japan? How much does it cost to raise a family? How does this compare with what the average couple can expect to make?
No, they're the worst.So what? They're still "post feminist."
They're also not "the worst." They simply score badly.
Poverty is measured by household income.Prove it. In terms of income, I am below the poverty line.
How does the average unmarried Japanese man who makes 2 to 6 million yen a year compare?
It was the link that *you* posted that said crowding played a role!!Prove that crowding plays a roll. I thought you said it was all about economics.
Your argument is so inane that now you're arguing that your own sources are wrong.
And then they wonder why things aren't working out for them