Last edited by Henrin; 02-26-14 at 02:35 PM.
Thank you for that concession.Not necessarily. Modern men can be guilty of the same sort of short-sighted and selfish thinking being described in this thread as well as women. As a matter of fact, they are often worse.
However, it cannot be denied that women are ultimately the "gate keepers" of sex and reproduction. Having them "go on strike," so to speak, ultimately causes far more harm for society in general than men doing the same.
Dispensed with.Sadly enough, "going on strike" is pretty much exactly what many women in Japan, and the rest of the "post-feminist" world have done. Japan is currently in the process of falling apart because of this, and, arguably, we're not faring much better.
Again, Japan is out of the discussion.That remains to be seen. Given what can be observed taking place in Japan and many parts of Europe even as we speak, I sincerely doubt that the transition will be so rosy as you might like to believe.
Basically all of our population growth at the present moment is being fueled by "low income" demographics, who tend to lack much in the way of social mobility and overwhelmingly rely upon government assistance to get by. They also tend to pass on poverty and dependency from generation to generation like an inheritable disease.
If they come to outnumber the people in this country who actually produce the revenue used to support them, the system might very well collapse in on itself.
I stand by my comment, attrition will take it's toll and those below a certain level will ascend as opportunities present themselves and you are pressing another unnecessary alarm button. I take exception to the claim that ALL of the U.S. population growth is the segment you describe as welfare dependent.
The birth rate stabilized in 2012
Chart of the Week: Big drop in birth rate may be leveling off | Pew Research CenterThe U.S. birth rate, which had been relatively stable or rising, began falling after 2007, when the Great Recession began and the decline persisted even after the official end of the recession in 2009. But the pace of decline showed signs of slowing in 2011, when the birth rate dipped by a relatively modest 1.4% from the year before. By contrast, from 2009 to 2010, it declined by 3.2%.
The recent decline in births was led by foreign-born women, especially those from Mexico, according to a previous Pew Research analysis. The decrease in fertility was particularly steep among women with a high school diploma or less, as well as younger women. The drop was largest in states hardest hit by the recession, another Pew Research report showed.
The article can accompanying chart indicate the birth rate is stabilizing, even in the demographic you cite, which is still only 14.6 of all births in the U.S. Hispanic and Asian/Pacific Islanders have a higher birth rate and are a lesser percentage of welfare recipients. If we are going to discuss traits of certain demographics, those are not the population you are speaking of.
Welfare Statistics | Statistic Brain
Again, Japan does not apply.The kind of men mentioned in the OP.
Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters
An entirely new breed of "slacker" men have developed out of the post-sexual revolution and post-feminist world for which there is no historical precedent.
Again, with Japan serving as the prime example here, they have done so largely in reaction to the changes which have taken place in women's behavior.
Many men feel less pressure to fill a given "masculine" role, so they are choosing not to do so.
Your source is a right wing blogger, with a Phd., yes, but a regular on Pajamas Television, where her blog is posted. Not exactly a clinically neutral venue.
Why do I sense an implied put down of her life choices before the career in question here?
Is a career really necessary for a woman, or anyone, really, to define their role in the world? Is motherhood not capable of being considered a "career?"
There was no implied put down of your mother. I said she had a career, now. She waited. That is all I meant.
Of course not. But that is the choice of each individual to figure out how they want to define their lives. Not all women want to be mothers. Or mothers first.
I'm done reading long articles and blogs. Please cite the relevant passages you need to make your point.To the contrary, many female CEOs actually follow this same trajectory; not really hitting the "big time" until their children are basically grown.
Get pregnant at 25 if you want a high-powered career
Why should women necessarily have to follow the same trajectory as men?
They're really not built for the same role. Trying to force them into it often does more harm than good.
My mother actually went so far as to tell me that her view on the matter was essentially, "You can go to work any time, but you only have so many years to have children."
Frankly, I think this is a good way to look at it. Far too many women put marriage and childrearing off thinking that they'll "get around to it eventually," and never actually do.
Many of these women wind up being rather unhappy in the long run.
The Grief of Childlessness
It might even play a role in the steady increase in suicide rates that has been observed among middle aged women (white women in particular) in recent decades as well.
The number of CEO's of fortune 500 companies: 18. Highest ever.
Why should women follow the same trajectory as men? Proven success.
It is for each woman to decide when or if she becomes a parent. Not society. And their responsibility, if they are disappointed in that choice.
Thank you. That's all we want, is the choice.Thankfully, the decision doesn't have to be binary. Women are fully capable of doing both or neither if they should so choose.
You get what you find when you look in those places. If you are looking to screw around, that's what you will find.Bars and clubs are, for all intents and purposes, the "default" mode of inter-gender interaction for the current generation. The online dating scene is a popular alternative, but even it tends to be far more focused on "screwing around" than serious relationship building when it comes to youth demographics.
The days of meeting women "at church" or some other such venue are by and large over for most of our society. Such things have become the exception, not the rule.
Their birthrates are low, women are deliberately avoiding marriage and motherhood in favor of professional pursuits, and more and more men are falling into a "slacker" myopia and pushing more adult pursuits back until later in life.
These problems are universal to the industrialized world. No amount of quibbling over irrelevant minor details on your part is going to change this.
If concepts like "female CEOs" exist at all, it is a "post-feminist" society.You even had to go as far as inanely claiming that Japan is a post-feminist society when it's actually one of the worst for gender equality amongst all the industrialized nations
Proof?In Japan, they live with their parents forever, not just into their 20's. It's qualitatively different.
Besides, there are plenty of people who do that in the United States as well, and it is only becoming more common as time goes by.
They're being mocked and ridiculed as being "herbivores."And here's another instance of you seeing things that aren't there. There is no mention of it being associated with a social stigma and certainly not the way it is in the US
How on Earth do you figure that is not indicative of "stigma?"
Not at all. It goes back to what River Dad was discussing earlier with the "sexual market place." In the post- Sexual Revolution world, promiscuity is now an option available to pretty much everyone.So now you're contradicting your own claims that you've made that kids today are having too much sex. Suddenly, you believe they're having very little sex.
However, not everyone is able to take advantage of this equally. Only the most desirable people really benefit from it. "Lower tier" people, who make up the vast majority of the population, tend to struggle, and make sexual liaisons much more infrequently as such.
A sizeable minority might not be able to find partners at all.
This doesn't change the fact that promiscuous sex outside of marriage is now more common than it was in the past across the board, even if a sizeable portion of population is essentially being "left behind."
So? You believe it. The logic still stands.Now you're using a feminist argument that even you don't believe. That is pretty dishonest.
If you believe it to be an issue in one country, it stands to reason that it would be an issue in the other as well.
As I've also said, I DON'T WANT TO BE MARRIED. That's exactly the point.As you said, actions matter. If you wanted to be married, you would be married - just like you described the Japanese.
If I wanted to be married right now, I would be.
As are the experts, apparently.No, you're just imagining that.
Japanese women are increasingly passing up marriage
Chikako Ogura, professor of gender studies at Waseda University in Tokyo, draws little comfort from government proposals to reverse the trend, such as adding child-care facilities and prodding employers to grant maternity leave.
The critical problem is that people aren't getting married at all. Young women have jobs and reject a marriage that won't deliver a more comfortable life, she says. Studies show men spend on average less than 10 minutes a day on housework while working women put in two hours.
"Women are looking for a marital partner who'll allow them to do whatever they want. They want a marriage that's perfect, economically and mentally. There aren't that many men who can offer that," Ogura said. "And they're all taken."Odd. Try this instead.Your link goes to an article about orange juice. Not sure what that has to do with this discussion
More Japanese women are workingóbut for the economy to thrive they need to be running things
The point still stands.In Nov. 2013, female labor participation among women 15 to 64 hit a record-high of 66%, a big jump from the 63.9% a year earlier
Female work force participation rates are increasing.I posted proof that it has been going down for the last 30 years.
And, again, millions of young people fleeing marriage, commitment, and family precisely because they do not want to be bothered with "traditional values" that they feel to be constrictive, doesn't equate to the "abandoning traditional values".... How, exactly?The first I have already agreed are similar, but even you have admitted that they are primarily due to economic factors not cultural ones so it's not because the Japanese are abandoning traditional values.
I have seen absolutely no evidence to suggest that Western economies will fare better.In Japan, it's been going on for 30 years. Maybe in 25 years, you'll have a point.
Considering the kind of crap Westerners try to pull with this argument all the time...I guess you know more about what they can afford than they do
"I couldn't possibly afford a family right now! I just moved into a new apartment and bought a new car!"
...I will remain skeptical of the claim until I see some hard data comparing what the average unmarried Japanese person makes vs what is actually necessary to raise a family.
People are whiners all the way around, and its driving society into the ground.Actually what has been established is that american men are whiners.
That's kind of the point.
Evasion. What are the costs of living in Japan? How much does it cost to raise a family? How does this compare with what the average couple can expect to make?I already have, but feel free to post some evidence that contradicts the facts I've posted. So far, you've posted nothing to show how single men in Japan are making enough to support a family
Charts showing that the vast majority of both demographics are employed, and make between 2 and 6 million yen a year.Yes, charts showing the employment rates for single men and women in Japan are no more credible than an internet poll of 300 self-selected people.
Again, how does that compare to the costs of raising a family?
They're also not "the worst." They simply score badly.
Prove it. In terms of income, I am below the poverty line.Sounds like your situation
Again, sounds like your situation.
How does the average unmarried Japanese man who makes 2 to 6 million yen a year compare?
Prove that crowding plays a roll. I thought you said it was all about economics.You do realize your completely wrong and it pointed to how crowded Japan is and how they lack as much privacy as we have. It says it right there in the part she bolded, and you *still* don't see it!
And you think that is only talking about technology!!
You are once again competely ignoring any evidence that contradicts your inane beliefs.
"Men did not love Rome because she was great. She was great because they had loved her." -- G.K. Chesterton
Dont people *do* anything? Have any interests? Go anywhere? And church is still a very valid place to meet people, they have lots of functions and 'friends of friends.' Why dismiss that if it is meaningful to you?
I'd rather meet someone playing frisbee in the park or walking my dog (and have) than sort thru drunk desperate guys in bars. Many women just assume that guys in bars are only looking to get laid, so dont take that very seriously. Or they're just looking for the same :-)
So yes, after a few yrs, some people seem to not want to bother anymore. THey have/had the wrong expectations.