View Poll Results: Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

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  • Yes

    72 70.59%
  • No

    23 22.55%
  • Does not apply to me.

    7 6.86%
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Thread: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    FYI, people are people are people. Individuals and cultures may vary wildly, but generally speaking, people are pretty much the same all over. That's why we shouldn't automatically ignore what happens in other cultures by thinking it doesn't apply to us.
    No, we shouldn't automatically ignore what happens in other cultures, but I am in no way doing that. The situations are entirely different. What men in japan are responding to and how they are responding to it is entirely different than what men are responding to in America and how they are responding to it. If the situations were similar I would gladly talk of it, but they're not.
    Last edited by Henrin; 02-26-14 at 03:35 PM.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    My point was that Japan is an example of just how destructive these kind of trends can become.

    The idea that any society's culture would become so inherently self-centered and dysfunctional that it would run the risk of extinction not just because its members had lost interest in family, but human intimacy in general, is absolutely outlandish. Nevertheless, it has happened all the same.

    There is really nothing to say that it could not happen somewhere else.

    As I've pointed out, most of the same elements which lead Japan to its current state of affairs are present here as well. It's really anyone's guess where we might ultimately end up; especially as our culture continues to trend away from committed relationships and towards technology which renders human contact in many cases unnecessary in the first place.
    I'm going to remind you again, we have dispensed with Japan as an extreme example. You conceded this two replies ago:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Japan simply happens to be the most extreme case.
    Not necessarily. Modern men can be guilty of the same sort of short-sighted and selfish thinking being described in this thread as well as women. As a matter of fact, they are often worse.

    However, it cannot be denied that women are ultimately the "gate keepers" of sex and reproduction. Having them "go on strike," so to speak, ultimately causes far more harm for society in general than men doing the same.
    Thank you for that concession.
    Sadly enough, "going on strike" is pretty much exactly what many women in Japan, and the rest of the "post-feminist" world have done. Japan is currently in the process of falling apart because of this, and, arguably, we're not faring much better.
    Dispensed with.


    That remains to be seen. Given what can be observed taking place in Japan and many parts of Europe even as we speak, I sincerely doubt that the transition will be so rosy as you might like to believe.

    Basically all of our population growth at the present moment is being fueled by "low income" demographics, who tend to lack much in the way of social mobility and overwhelmingly rely upon government assistance to get by. They also tend to pass on poverty and dependency from generation to generation like an inheritable disease.

    If they come to outnumber the people in this country who actually produce the revenue used to support them, the system might very well collapse in on itself.
    Again, Japan is out of the discussion.

    I stand by my comment, attrition will take it's toll and those below a certain level will ascend as opportunities present themselves and you are pressing another unnecessary alarm button. I take exception to the claim that ALL of the U.S. population growth is the segment you describe as welfare dependent.

    Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]-population-birth-rate-jpg


    The birth rate stabilized in 2012
    The U.S. birth rate, which had been relatively stable or rising, began falling after 2007, when the Great Recession began and the decline persisted even after the official end of the recession in 2009. But the pace of decline showed signs of slowing in 2011, when the birth rate dipped by a relatively modest 1.4% from the year before. By contrast, from 2009 to 2010, it declined by 3.2%.

    The recent decline in births was led by foreign-born women, especially those from Mexico, according to a previous Pew Research analysis. The decrease in fertility was particularly steep among women with a high school diploma or less, as well as younger women. The drop was largest in states hardest hit by the recession, another Pew Research report showed.
    Chart of the Week: Big drop in birth rate may be leveling off | Pew Research Center

    The article can accompanying chart indicate the birth rate is stabilizing, even in the demographic you cite, which is still only 14.6 of all births in the U.S. Hispanic and Asian/Pacific Islanders have a higher birth rate and are a lesser percentage of welfare recipients. If we are going to discuss traits of certain demographics, those are not the population you are speaking of.

    Welfare Statistics | Statistic Brain

    The kind of men mentioned in the OP.

    Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters

    An entirely new breed of "slacker" men have developed out of the post-sexual revolution and post-feminist world for which there is no historical precedent.

    Again, with Japan serving as the prime example here, they have done so largely in reaction to the changes which have taken place in women's behavior.

    Many men feel less pressure to fill a given "masculine" role, so they are choosing not to do so.
    Again, Japan does not apply.

    Your source is a right wing blogger, with a Phd., yes, but a regular on Pajamas Television, where her blog is posted. Not exactly a clinically neutral venue.

    Why do I sense an implied put down of her life choices before the career in question here?

    Is a career really necessary for a woman, or anyone, really, to define their role in the world? Is motherhood not capable of being considered a "career?"

    There was no implied put down of your mother. I said she had a career, now. She waited. That is all I meant.

    Of course not. But that is the choice of each individual to figure out how they want to define their lives. Not all women want to be mothers. Or mothers first.

    To the contrary, many female CEOs actually follow this same trajectory; not really hitting the "big time" until their children are basically grown.

    Get pregnant at 25 if you want a high-powered career

    Why should women necessarily have to follow the same trajectory as men?

    They're really not built for the same role. Trying to force them into it often does more harm than good.

    My mother actually went so far as to tell me that her view on the matter was essentially, "You can go to work any time, but you only have so many years to have children."

    Frankly, I think this is a good way to look at it. Far too many women put marriage and childrearing off thinking that they'll "get around to it eventually," and never actually do.

    Many of these women wind up being rather unhappy in the long run.

    The Grief of Childlessness

    It might even play a role in the steady increase in suicide rates that has been observed among middle aged women (white women in particular) in recent decades as well.
    I'm done reading long articles and blogs. Please cite the relevant passages you need to make your point.

    The number of CEO's of fortune 500 companies: 18. Highest ever.

    Why should women follow the same trajectory as men? Proven success.

    It is for each woman to decide when or if she becomes a parent. Not society. And their responsibility, if they are disappointed in that choice.

    Thankfully, the decision doesn't have to be binary. Women are fully capable of doing both or neither if they should so choose.
    Thank you. That's all we want, is the choice.
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Does it change anything?

    Things are what they are. For every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

    Modern notions of female "empowerment" (when pursued within a Western style feminist framework, at least) can be observed to have played a direct role in leading men to eschew their own traditional roles. Many men simply don't feel that traditionally "masculine" virtues are necessary anymore, so they have opted for self-indulgent extended adolescence instead.

    Again, we can already see how destructive this sort of trend can ultimately be by looking at what has already taken place in many other parts of the world.
    All that says is women are responsible for the choices men make. If they want to eschew their own roles, that's on them. Not us and since ALL women, nor a significant portion, are not forgoing children altogether, there are plenty out there with whom to propagate. As the chart I provided earlier indicated, researchers believe the birth rate has stabilized.

    Bars and clubs are, for all intents and purposes, the "default" mode of inter-gender interaction for the current generation. The online dating scene is a popular alternative, but even it tends to be far more focused on "screwing around" than serious relationship building when it comes to youth demographics.

    The days of meeting women "at church" or some other such venue are by and large over for most of our society. Such things have become the exception, not the rule.
    You get what you find when you look in those places. If you are looking to screw around, that's what you will find.
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    There are plenty of sexually disinterested shut-ins, and people like myself, who have simply stopped trying to date, in the United States as well.
    So because you have chosen to stop trying to date, you feel there is a groundswell of other guys like yourself. Now I see. Having sons in your demographic, my personal experience with them, indicates otherwise. When I include my daughter's male friends, co-workers and acquaintances, the same can be said.
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yet you can't identify those similarities and support them with evidence.
    I can provide evidence for all them, and have already done so.

    Their birthrates are low, women are deliberately avoiding marriage and motherhood in favor of professional pursuits, and more and more men are falling into a "slacker" myopia and pushing more adult pursuits back until later in life.

    These problems are universal to the industrialized world. No amount of quibbling over irrelevant minor details on your part is going to change this.

    You even had to go as far as inanely claiming that Japan is a post-feminist society when it's actually one of the worst for gender equality amongst all the industrialized nations
    If concepts like "female CEOs" exist at all, it is a "post-feminist" society.

    In Japan, they live with their parents forever, not just into their 20's. It's qualitatively different.
    Proof?

    Besides, there are plenty of people who do that in the United States as well, and it is only becoming more common as time goes by.

    And here's another instance of you seeing things that aren't there. There is no mention of it being associated with a social stigma and certainly not the way it is in the US
    They're being mocked and ridiculed as being "herbivores."

    How on Earth do you figure that is not indicative of "stigma?"

    So now you're contradicting your own claims that you've made that kids today are having too much sex. Suddenly, you believe they're having very little sex.
    Not at all. It goes back to what River Dad was discussing earlier with the "sexual market place." In the post- Sexual Revolution world, promiscuity is now an option available to pretty much everyone.

    However, not everyone is able to take advantage of this equally. Only the most desirable people really benefit from it. "Lower tier" people, who make up the vast majority of the population, tend to struggle, and make sexual liaisons much more infrequently as such.

    A sizeable minority might not be able to find partners at all.

    This doesn't change the fact that promiscuous sex outside of marriage is now more common than it was in the past across the board, even if a sizeable portion of population is essentially being "left behind."

    Now you're using a feminist argument that even you don't believe. That is pretty dishonest.
    So? You believe it. The logic still stands.

    If you believe it to be an issue in one country, it stands to reason that it would be an issue in the other as well.

    As you said, actions matter. If you wanted to be married, you would be married - just like you described the Japanese.
    As I've also said, I DON'T WANT TO BE MARRIED. That's exactly the point.

    If I wanted to be married right now, I would be.

    No, you're just imagining that.
    As are the experts, apparently.

    Japanese women are increasingly passing up marriage

    Chikako Ogura, professor of gender studies at Waseda University in Tokyo, draws little comfort from government proposals to reverse the trend, such as adding child-care facilities and prodding employers to grant maternity leave.

    The critical problem is that people aren't getting married at all. Young women have jobs and reject a marriage that won't deliver a more comfortable life, she says. Studies show men spend on average less than 10 minutes a day on housework while working women put in two hours.

    "Women are looking for a marital partner who'll allow them to do whatever they want. They want a marriage that's perfect, economically and mentally. There aren't that many men who can offer that," Ogura said. "And they're all taken."
    Your link goes to an article about orange juice. Not sure what that has to do with this discussion
    Odd. Try this instead.

    More Japanese women are workingóbut for the economy to thrive they need to be running things

    In Nov. 2013, female labor participation among women 15 to 64 hit a record-high of 66%, a big jump from the 63.9% a year earlier
    The point still stands.

    I posted proof that it has been going down for the last 30 years.
    Female work force participation rates are increasing.

    Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]-japan-s-labor-participation-rates-workers-aged-15-64-women-men_chartbuilder-jpg

    The first I have already agreed are similar, but even you have admitted that they are primarily due to economic factors not cultural ones so it's not because the Japanese are abandoning traditional values.
    And, again, millions of young people fleeing marriage, commitment, and family precisely because they do not want to be bothered with "traditional values" that they feel to be constrictive, doesn't equate to the "abandoning traditional values".... How, exactly?

    In Japan, it's been going on for 30 years. Maybe in 25 years, you'll have a point.
    I have seen absolutely no evidence to suggest that Western economies will fare better.

    I guess you know more about what they can afford than they do
    Considering the kind of crap Westerners try to pull with this argument all the time...

    i.e.

    "I couldn't possibly afford a family right now! I just moved into a new apartment and bought a new car!"

    ...I will remain skeptical of the claim until I see some hard data comparing what the average unmarried Japanese person makes vs what is actually necessary to raise a family.

    Actually what has been established is that american men are whiners.
    People are whiners all the way around, and its driving society into the ground.

    That's kind of the point.

    I already have, but feel free to post some evidence that contradicts the facts I've posted. So far, you've posted nothing to show how single men in Japan are making enough to support a family
    Evasion. What are the costs of living in Japan? How much does it cost to raise a family? How does this compare with what the average couple can expect to make?

    Yes, charts showing the employment rates for single men and women in Japan are no more credible than an internet poll of 300 self-selected people.
    Charts showing that the vast majority of both demographics are employed, and make between 2 and 6 million yen a year.

    Again, how does that compare to the costs of raising a family?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    So what? They are still the most unequal industrialized nation when it comes to gender.
    So what? They're still "post feminist."

    They're also not "the worst." They simply score badly.

    Sounds like your situation

    Again, sounds like your situation.
    Prove it. In terms of income, I am below the poverty line.

    How does the average unmarried Japanese man who makes 2 to 6 million yen a year compare?

    You do realize your completely wrong and it pointed to how crowded Japan is and how they lack as much privacy as we have. It says it right there in the part she bolded, and you *still* don't see it!

    And you think that is only talking about technology!!

    You are once again competely ignoring any evidence that contradicts your inane beliefs.
    Prove that crowding plays a roll. I thought you said it was all about economics.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post

    You get what you find when you look in those places. If you are looking to screw around, that's what you will find.
    I'm always amazed at people who seem to depend on bars or clubs to look for mates.

    Dont people *do* anything? Have any interests? Go anywhere? And church is still a very valid place to meet people, they have lots of functions and 'friends of friends.' Why dismiss that if it is meaningful to you?

    I'd rather meet someone playing frisbee in the park or walking my dog (and have) than sort thru drunk desperate guys in bars. Many women just assume that guys in bars are only looking to get laid, so dont take that very seriously. Or they're just looking for the same :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    I beleive that as well. The real personality comes out inthe 3 to 4 year range.
    People rush into things and they let their emotions run wild, they never stop to think "can I actually spend the rest of my life with this person?" The vast majority of the decision needs to be intellectual, not emotional. Just falling in love isn't enough.
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    So because you have chosen to stop trying to date, you feel there is a groundswell of other guys like yourself. Now I see. Having sons in your demographic, my personal experience with them, indicates otherwise. When I include my daughter's male friends, co-workers and acquaintances, the same can be said.
    Agreed....you can easily *see* guys on the hunt all the time. How serious they are, I dont know. Maybe just looking to have sex but I go to alot of different functions and events and there are guys there, available and looking, and that's for more than sex. Same with women I'd say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    People rush into things and they let their emotions run wild, they never stop to think "can I actually spend the rest of my life with this person?" The vast majority of the decision needs to be intellectual, not emotional. Just falling in love isn't enough.
    Yes and after that first rush of emotion, people have to work harder to treat each other well and keep the relationship fresh and special. I think people forget that relationships, no matter how good, require work and compromise.

    So yes, after a few yrs, some people seem to not want to bother anymore. THey have/had the wrong expectations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Yes and after that first rush of emotion, people have to work harder to treat each other well and keep the relationship fresh and special. I think people forget that relationships, no matter how good, require work and compromise.

    So yes, after a few yrs, some people seem to not want to bother anymore. THey have/had the wrong expectations.
    Yup, marriage is like a business partnership. It has it's ups, it has it's downs but you are committed to being together regardless. My wife and I have been married for 21 years so far and divorce isn't an option. We made a commitment "until death do we part" and we're going to keep that commitment no matter what. We were engaged for 4 years before we got married, we knew each other for close to 10 years before we got married, we weren't in any hurry, we knew each other extremely well and both of us are totally committed to making it work, no matter what.
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