View Poll Results: Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

Voters
102. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    72 70.59%
  • No

    23 22.55%
  • Does not apply to me.

    7 6.86%
Page 48 of 164 FirstFirst ... 3846474849505898148 ... LastLast
Results 471 to 480 of 1640

Thread: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

  1. #471
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Charleston, South Carolina
    Last Seen
    12-02-16 @ 01:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    28,659

    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I didn't say it was the major focus of your argument here. However, it was the point that you made and we were discussing
    There are plenty of sexually disinterested shut-ins, and people like myself, who have simply stopped trying to date, in the United States as well.

    Most of the same driving principles which lead to this state of affairs in Japan, also lead to it here. There are simply fewer of them.

    You mean like the Japanese trends of

    1) despising sex
    2) being sexually inactive
    3) firing women who get married
    4) looking down on married women who work
    5) young single adults living at home forever

    Please name these modern societies where the above five trends hold true (I'll give you one - #5 is true in Italy, but I'd like to see you argue that the Italians despise sex and are sexually inactive)
    Plenty of people in the United States are guilty of number 5, and it is growing more common every year. Numbers 2 - 4 are arguably true of our society as well (depending upon how much credence one lends to feminist claims of workplace discrimination), but simply to a lesser degree than in Japan. Number 1 is, at the moment, anyway, peculiar to Japan.

    However, all of this ultimately irrelevant, as none of these factors are the major driving forces behind Japan's current problems.

    Again, even highly "progressive" societies, like Sweden, which take the economic edge off of childrearing almost entirely, suffer from the same problems with lack of marriages, slovenly men, and low birthrates as are faced by Japan.

    And RuPaul could conceivably be elected president and issue an executive order requiring everyone to be fabulous
    And some Austrian nobody with one testicle and a loopy anti-Semitic bone to pick could, in the course of just a few years, take control of one of the most powerful nations on earth and plunge the entire world into a half decade long war costing the lives of millions.

    Implausible, no?

    The simple fact of the matter is that it's already happened once. There's really no reason to assume that it couldn't happen again, especially when many of the same factors (a bum economic, women disinterested in relationships, electronic alternatives to sex, ecta) are at play.

    Yes, the standards required by tradition (a man who can earn enough to provide for the entire family) are unrealistic.
    My family did it, and they did it on a salary that wasn't much more than 50K a year for most of the time I was growing up.

    It is viewed as being undesirable, however; so most people avoid it.

    The men can't provide for a family. That's why they, like the women, live with their parents.
    The Japanese often live with their parents either way regardless until marriage (and will actually inherit their parents' homes after they die under many circumstances as well), so that particular point is ultimately moot.

    Again, what is the cost of living in Japan? How much does it cost to raise a family?

    We already know that more than half of single men in Japan fall into the 2 to 6 million yen salary range. How much is needed?

    If marriage were really as important to you as you claim, you should be gladly rushing to marry a woman. That is, if you didn't have such unrealistic expectations.
    I never said that it was particularly important to me for the time being. It is a long term goal, dependent upon certain outside conditions.

    It can wait a few years until I am better established, which I fully intend to happen.

    If it doesn't, I might just stuff a gun in my mouth (or, at the very least, take up cooking meth, or something ).

    The fact is, the women don't have financial woes. They live with their parents. Their rent is paid. Their food is paid. They just have to buy clothes and Hello Kitty dolls.
    Clearly that life style is more important to them than the marriages they claim to desire.

    More than most of the men are making,
    Prove it.

    which is why they live at home with their parents
    Living with one's parents is a cultural norm in Japan.

    It's not universal and Japan is not a "post-feminist" society. It is a very sexist nation that clings to traditional gender roles. In fact, the article you link to even agrees. It says:

    Does that sound like a "post-feminist" society to you?
    They have careers at all. Yes, it does.

    Frankly, everything you've claimed here could be (and often is) claimed by feminist groups about United States' culture as well.

    you don't seem to realize that the article contradicts your claim. You quoted things that are the exact opposite of what you're saying and you seem to think it agrees with you. I'll break it down for you

    They're saying that in Japan, they are expected to get married and not work, which is consistent with traditional values. That's not feminism at work.

    Again, consistent with traditional values.

    Women are becoming more educated (inconsistent with traditional values) but once they graduate, they can't continue to work once they get married (consistent with traditional values)
    Yes, all of which supports my claim that they do not desire "traditional values" and are actually remaining single to avoid them.

    The problem in Japan is that they are clinging too stubbornly to the traditional model of marriage where the woman does not work, and the man is the sole provider.
    Again, many of these same problems exist even in the most "gender equal" societies on Earth.

    The stubbornness to which you refer undoubtedly plays a role in pushing Japan completely over the edge in comparison to other nations. However, it's not like the rest of the industrialized world was ever doing particularly great in this regard in the first place.

    The "career oriented" model of female empowerment simply does not mesh with the notions of motherhood and committed relationships under most circumstances.

    The men don't earn enough to support a family. Your own link says that it is "often impossible".
    That is their perception. It doesn't mean that it is necessarily true on an objective basis.

    And if they can't have a two-income marriage because, in Japan, they fire married women or at the very least, pass them over for promotions because they think the women will leave to take care of their children.
    That would only render the situation difficult, not impossible.

    These men don't even earn enough to be able to afford to date. Do you really think they can afford to support a family on their income?
    I find it exceptionally hard to believe that so large a portion of Japanese society could be destitute as to be rendered completely incapable of supporting a family.

    According to some studies, many Japanese men who actually can support themselves simply prefer to be single.

    Increasing number of Japanese men opt for bachelorhood

    This is a trend that apparently goes both ways.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 02-25-14 at 11:05 PM.

  2. #472
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Charleston, South Carolina
    Last Seen
    12-02-16 @ 01:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    28,659

    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Not if feminism has no effect on the marriage rate and the birth rate.

    In Japan, feminism has had little effect. It is considered, as verified by the article you linked to, "one of the world’s worst nations for gender equality at work."

    But according to you, "one of the world’s worst nations for gender equality at work" is a feminist nirvana for working women.
    Feminism in Japan

    In 1970, in the wake of the Anti-Vietnam War, New Left and student movement radicalism of the late 1960s, a new women's liberation movement emerged in Japan called ūman ribu (woman lib). This movement was in sync with radical feminist movements in the U.S. and elsewhere, catalyzing a resurgence of feminist activism through the 1970s and beyond. The activists of the movement forwarded a comprehensive critique of the male dominated nature of modern Japan, arguing for a fundamental change of the political-economic system and culture of the society. What distinguished them from previous feminist movements was their emphasis on the liberation of sex (sei no kaihō).[5] They did not aim for equality with men, as they argued that men also should be liberated from the oppressive aspects of a patriarchal and capitalist system.

    In 1979, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly. The convention was ratified by the government of Japan in 1985.[6]
    They might be less equal, but that doesn't mean that feminism hasn't had an impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    And yet, you continue to refuse to marry or even date because you don't earn enough to buy enough things. That sounds very materialistic.

    BTW, the idea that a woman should marry a man who can support a family is nothing new. It's very traditional. In fact, throughout most of civilization, the income of the two has been the most important factor in determining who would marry. Traditionally, it would be scandalous for a wealthy young person to marry someone from a lower income class.
    I have seen no evidence to suggest that most single women would be marrying into abject poverty if they were to commit themselves to these men. Things would simply be more difficult than they might prefer, and they are not fond of the social expectations that go along with the institution, so they generally opt to remain under their current circumstances instead.

    Again, it is a matter of personal choice under most circumstances, not necessity.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 02-25-14 at 10:49 PM.

  3. #473
    Sage
    RiverDad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    04-20-14 @ 02:16 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    5,039

    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I'm not a feminist, at least not in the militant, 70s sense.

    I asked earlier in the thread for someone to define 'feminist.' Because all American women are being tarred with the feathers in the OP.

    So who is a feminist? All American women?

    Women who hate men?

    Women who dont agree with your views on things?

    How about (my personal view) "women who believe women deserve the same choices and opportunities as men and that women are the equal of men."
    You've heard the story about the frog being placed into a pot of water and then the fire is started underneath the pot and the frog is cooked alive whereas if the frog was dropped into a pot of boiling water it would immediately jump out.

    Well the same process is in play with cultural change. There are changes in play which aren't really noticed because they're normalized over time. To really get a different vision you need to find commentary which is anchored on a different foundation. Go read some Christian women who write about traditional gender roles in their lives and community. You can strip out all of the religious references and you're left with customs and accepted viewpoints/wisdom that most women in early 20th century America would recognize. The fact that what you read would seem so alien speaks to how much norms have changed - the link between what used to be A and what now constitutes B is broken.

    The feminist revolution has corrupted so much of society. It's like an acid which has eaten at the foundations. Social change, of itself, is not the problem, the problem is social change which requires a leap of faith and the outcome is not what is promised. This is why we're reeling from so many unintended consequences arising from the feminist reform of society. We're now well into the patch-work stage - plugging leaks and making do but not in any coherent way.

    To answer your questions would literally require a manuscript length effort. What I can say though is this - the feminist revolution chose the wrong model of reform back when it was launched. It adopted the male role in society as something to duplicate rather than reforming society as a whole to better address the grievances of women.

  4. #474
    Sage
    Lursa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Outside Seattle
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:56 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,966

    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    You've heard the story about the frog being placed into a pot of water and then the fire is started underneath the pot and the frog is cooked alive whereas if the frog was dropped into a pot of boiling water it would immediately jump out.

    Well the same process is in play with cultural change. There are changes in play which aren't really noticed because they're normalized over time. To really get a different vision you need to find commentary which is anchored on a different foundation. Go read some Christian women who write about traditional gender roles in their lives and community. You can strip out all of the religious references and you're left with customs and accepted viewpoints/wisdom that most women in early 20th century America would recognize. The fact that what you read would seem so alien speaks to how much norms have changed - the link between what used to be A and what now constitutes B is broken.

    The feminist revolution has corrupted so much of society. It's like an acid which has eaten at the foundations. Social change, of itself, is not the problem, the problem is social change which requires a leap of faith and the outcome is not what is promised. This is why we're reeling from so many unintended consequences arising from the feminist reform of society. We're now well into the patch-work stage - plugging leaks and making do but not in any coherent way.

    To answer your questions would literally require a manuscript length effort. What I can say though is this - the feminist revolution chose the wrong model of reform back when it was launched. It adopted the male role in society as something to duplicate rather than reforming society as a whole to better address the grievances of women.
    I grew up in a very Christian home...parents both taught Sunday school, were on the board, etc. And I'm Christian. And you cant really 'strip away' the Christian stuff to see what remains....lol. That is a foundation, a frame. It is not exclusive to Christianity of course.

    And the so-called feminist revolution has only been around for about 40 yrs....and already we are seeing the trends of women choosing to return to the home. And women didnt choose to be more like men. We dont want to be men. Ugh. No. We want the same choices and opportunities and there's NO DOUBT that we were being deprived of such...legally and societally...before. Women still do not have equality as wage earners.

    And it's not like there was some 'playbook' for a different model of reform, lol. We wanted to have the same freedoms and choices and opportunities as men....and I guess took the most direct route to get them...thru the Constitution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  5. #475
    Sage
    lizzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    between two worlds
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,581

    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Interesting. I find that it's pretty equal in terms of one or the other just not being content anymore. Women tend to become more independent and leave. Men tend to be 'comfortable' where they are and then just have affairs. Just from what I've seen and read tho.
    Interesting to me as well, as my experience has been that it's typically women who have the affairs, at least among the type of people I hang around with. In fact, I can't think of a single male friend of mine who has had an affair, but I can think of several women friends who have.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  6. #476
    Sage
    Lursa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Outside Seattle
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:56 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,966

    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Interesting to me as well, as my experience has been that it's typically women who have the affairs, at least among the type of people I hang around with. In fact, I can't think of a single male friend of mine who has had an affair, but I can think of several women friends who have.
    Hmm. Total opposite for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  7. #477
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Gina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:01 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    31,947

    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    I mentioned internet pornography earlier.
    Um, I'm sorry I missed that though the kind of technology was referring to was virtual.
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

  8. #478
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Charleston, South Carolina
    Last Seen
    12-02-16 @ 01:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    28,659

    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Um, I'm sorry I missed that though the kind of technology was referring to was virtual.
    We have pretty much all the technologies that Japan does in this regard.

    Honest to God "virtual reality" might not be too far around the bend either.

  9. #479
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Gina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:01 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    31,947

    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    We have pretty much all the technologies that Japan does in this regard.

    Honest to God "virtual reality" might not be too far around the bend either.
    From your article:
    Japanese-American author Roland Kelts, who writes about Japan's youth, says it's inevitable that the future of Japanese relationships will be largely technology driven. "Japan has developed incredibly sophisticated virtual worlds and online communication systems. Its smart phone apps are the world's most imaginative." Kelts says the need to escape into private, virtual worlds in Japan stems from the fact that it's an overcrowded nation with limited physical space. But he also believes the rest of the world is not far behind.
    Different kind and different reasons than in the U.S.
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

  10. #480
    Sage
    RiverDad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    04-20-14 @ 02:16 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    5,039

    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    IAgain, I dont think I really understood the main point of your post, sorry. That's my attempt at interpretation. ^^
    Society has scripts for men and women. They're general scripts of course, but still, these scripts tell us what is expected of us. These scripts have changed over time. Men used to be expected to do A + B + C + D and women were expected to do Z + Y + X + W and this resulted in a stable society. The script for woman has been changed by the revolution of feminism. Now women read the script and that script paints a very different picture for women than it used to. The script for women has changed a lot more than the script for men. Well, if the two historical scripts for men and women resulted in the creation of stability, then changing one script while leaving the other intact is going to create instability. Either the instability can be stabilized or it can't. If it can, then society continues to function but in a new manner. If it can't then society crumbles, just like other societies throughout history have crumbled.

    Women's sexuality has been freed. That's great for women and that's great for a lot of men. It might not be so great for a stable society though. Women are objecting to the fact that men like sleeping with them but won't commit to relationships. Women have the freedom to fully express their sexuality with lessened stigma attached to such expressions. That sexual freedom though comes at a cost. Men are showing that they're less willing to commit, especially the men who are the beneficiaries of sex with a lot of women. Women seem to find preselected men attractive - if other women qualify a man as being desirable then that makes him more attractive, and so we get a lot more women chasing fewer desirable men. This leaves the guys at the bottom of the totem pole stranded because all of the women have shifted their sights a few notches higher. This state of affairs is what genetic analysis shows us actually transpired during the long run-up that humanity followed to civilization - about 80% of all women who had ever lived, reproduced, compared to about 40% of men. We see that dynamic in many parts of nature too.

    OK Cupid has been doing a lot of number crunching on their database. They reported that women rate 80% of men below average. Do you see the problem with that? The male medium that women desire has been upshifted. The guys that women desire to marry don't want to marry them because they're enjoying being a scarce commodity. This dynamic is even taking place on university campuses. It's so funny to watch and sad in a way too. Plenty of schools now have 2 women for every guy. Terrific to be a guy, right? Maybe. The loser guys are still loser guys and the scarcity of men isn't helping them with women. It's the guys at the top who are reaping the benefit of all the women students. This is female sexuality unleashed from societal restraints. Yay freedom. As with double entry bookkeeping, for every credit there is a debit.

    Those two articles I linked speak to two sides of the same coin. Women are scripted to see their roles in certain ways or are scripted to see the parameters of what is either acceptable or expected, so the script of women going to school, riding the merry go round of multiple men, launching a career, focusing on their career and then turning their attention to finding a mate is seen as normal. They'll get all of the bad boys out of their system and then find a nice guy to settle down with. Well, those nice guys don't like that. They want to be with these women when they're young, firm, bubbly, not jaded, not afflicted with a scarred heart and wounded self-esteem from being dumped so frequently by the high quality men that they've been targeting and not getting. The most valuable things that a woman can give to a man are wasted on the wrong men and then when the women choose to settle they give the man what's left over. The men aren't finding that to be such a great bargain, hence they're no so eager to settle with these older women because now they're either disengaged and gone their own way or they're using what they've got to target the younger women who do find them attractive. After all, there is still plenty of sex going on all over the place, it's just not working out the way women want it to work out.
    Last edited by RiverDad; 02-25-14 at 11:48 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •