View Poll Results: Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

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  • Yes

    72 70.59%
  • No

    23 22.55%
  • Does not apply to me.

    7 6.86%
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Thread: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

  1. #451
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Did you seriously just quote the Amazon page to use against me? lol. Why don't you buy the book, read it, and come back to talk. Until then, I have nothing left to say to you.
    Yes I did. And successfully too it would seem.
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    That was your point. They would give up human intimacy. Again, that was in relation to the Japanese, so we can dispense with this point too.
    It really was not, but I suppose we can dispense with it all the same.

    General, but there is no point on lamenting the end of human procreation because selfish women choose careers over having a family. That isn't even the case in Japan, as Sangha has said more than once.
    They're not reproducing, and they're not marrying; favoring their own careers instead.

    I fail to see how you could assume that it is not the case.

    That is a different problem than a population dying out because traditional gender roles are not being observed, in general.
    Again, how do you figure? The portion of the population we are discussing here is "dying out" specifically because of its rejection of more traditional gender roles.

    Women not committing their lives to make babies, does not lead men to become socially aimless and unmotivated. Where is that observable?
    It's observable in both Japan and in the OP. It is an undeniable fact.

    More women "going it alone" leads more men to stop trying to pursue them.

    Those kinds of men often seem to lose the motivation to do much else when this occurs.

    What's observable is that women are damned if they do or don't. Some men complain about the blood sucking women who are out to get married to the richest guy. When women adjust to make ourselves self-sufficient, we are letting down society by not making enough babies. You guys need to make up your minds. Or possibly you have and the only acceptable role for a woman is to take the first dude that crosses our path and start popping out babies and servitude to that man?

    What is an acceptable role for women? Describe your perfect woman and your best hope for the nation, as it relates to the position women should occupy in the U.S.
    My mother would be a fairly good example, IMO. She's college educated, and she had five children.

    She stayed at home while we were young, but went back to school five years ago to become a nurse. She succeeded, and is now working in this new career, while taking classes on the side to attain a second bachelor's degree.

    While I'm certainly not suggesting that all women should have to take this route if they do not wish to, she does demonstrate that it is not necessary for notions of traditional family and career to be mutually exclusive. It is entirely possible to pursue both.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 02-25-14 at 09:53 PM.

  3. #453
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Women not committing their lives to make babies, does not lead men to become socially aimless and unmotivated. Where is that observable?
    I don't think that this is the proper formulation. What we see is that men without women in their lives are, generally, more content to live in a cardboard box and eat cheerios and play video games. They'll, again speaking generally, work less and only to the point that is sufficient to cover their needs. The labor economics literature shows a very real "marriage effect" for men - increased wages and increased rates of wage raises being sustained for long periods of time in their careers compared to single men. There has to be a reason that men continue to engage in soul-crushing jobs, endure the mindless droning of the workplace, etc. If it's just a matter of meeting survival needs, the work required to earn the pay is far less and that's exactly what we see from men who've been kicked in the nads in the sexual market place. Single guys who are competing for women put in a lot more work effort in order to marshall more resources. Married men out-earn them.

    Remove the prospect of women from a man's live and then you pretty much sap ambition too.

    Those slackers we see growing in number in society didn't really have a counterpart in 1940. There was an expectation of marriage, people got married young, there was no need to self-actualize during your 20s and 30s and then seek to get married. The rate of singlehood was lower, meaning that even the loser guys could match up with their loser girl counterparts. Now you have guys who have "something" by being married.

    Sure, it's not always a bed of roses - being poor and married isn't a Garden of Eden, but it's a sight better than being single, poor and crushed from being a loser in a more fiercely competitive sexual marketplace.

  4. #454
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Yes I did. And successfully too it would seem.
    What did you do successfully again? You made the suggestion that I was interviewed by her for her book. This would suggest that either a psychologist interviews people as part of their job, or that she decided to do interviews instead of taking from the knowledge she picked up at her job. Quoting that little paragraph was at best a strawman. I already told you she used the knowledge she gained from her job to write the book, so none of this even has a point in being said...again.
    Last edited by Henrin; 02-25-14 at 09:38 PM.

  5. #455
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, it is not true in Japan. As I have proven, single Japanese have a lot of interest in marriage and creating a family.
    Obviously they don't, or they would.

    And contrary to your claims about how feminism is at fault, in Japan the problem is that married women are expected to not work, making it difficult if not impossible for young people to have a two-income family. The one income family is unrealistic (because most Japanese men do not make enough) and the two income family is unrealistic (because the Japanese look down on married women who work, so they don't hire married women).

    It's not feminism that causes the Japanese to look down on married women who work. It's traditional values.
    If this were the case, the exact same trend would not be present in far more progressive societies like Sweden, which make a deliberate point of minimizing the economic impacts of marriage and child rearing.

    The simple fact of the matter is that modern notions of "gender roles" are not conducive to marriage or families.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 02-25-14 at 09:41 PM.

  6. #456
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Jealous? What? Weird.

    Some men just dont like losing control and power. THey feel that the successes of women diminished them. They dont like it if women are more successful than them and that affects many relationships where the women end up earning more $$, for example. It's amusing that you use women in human resources depts as an excuse for more women being successful.
    Those suppositions are unfounded on anything concrete. That's just feminist projection.
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    The whole resentment of 'materialism' keeps showing up in his posts on this subject and it makes some sense now since he just admitted he was broke.

    One does need to use less myopic judgement on social trends for an accurate view.

    Kinda rude to keep dissing people, esp. women, who want to have 'more' in life if that's what they want, instead of keeping house and raising kids, as 'materialistic.' I'm certainly not judging poverty (but I'm not claiming it's any high road either).
    I'm not "resentful" of materialism. I am pragmatically materialistic myself. That's exactly why I'm not dating right now.

    I have literally nothing to offer. I couldn't even afford to live right now if it weren't for other circumstances at play.

    Hopefully that'll improve here before too long, but it is the reality of my situation for the time being nevertheless.

    What I object to is the modern conviction which basically holds that "things" are more important than people. Japanese and American culture alike seem to harbor this particular fallacy in abundance, and it has not lead anywhere productive.

  8. #458
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Then that was your mistake, not mine. That was never the major focus of my argument here.
    I didn't say it was the major focus of your argument here. However, it was the point that you made and we were discussing

    But since you can't support your claim, and name those modern societies where young adults despise sex and are sexually inactive, you're going to try to distract with other issues.




    No, I did not. I claimed that many of the same trends were present, and that we might eventually wind up with a society where most people avoid relationships.
    Same trends?

    You mean like the Japanese trends of

    1) despising sex
    2) being sexually inactive
    3) firing women who get married
    4) looking down on married women who work
    5) young single adults living at home forever

    Please name these modern societies where the above five trends hold true (I'll give you one - #5 is true in Italy, but I'd like to see you argue that the Italians despise sex and are sexually inactive)

    This could conceivably result in more people becoming disenchanted with sex as well as virtual alternatives become more widely available, but that is not a given.
    And RuPaul could conceivably be elected president and issue an executive order requiring everyone to be fabulous
    :


    Their standards for what qualifies as being "suitable" are clearly unrealistic. That is a personal choice on their own part, not a necessity.
    Yes, the standards required by tradition (a man who can earn enough to provide for the entire family) are unrealistic.


    To point out that marriage is not necessarily dependent upon income. Refusing to consider marrying someone who could conceivably provide for you, simply because they are not able to provide in the way that you might ideally desire, is a matter of choice, not necessity.
    The men can't provide for a family. That's why they, like the women, live with their parents.

    Sound familiar?



    And if marriage is really as important to them as you claim, they should be gladly rushing into the arms of men to make up for their financial woes.
    If marriage were really as important to you as you claim, you should be gladly rushing to marry a woman. That is, if you didn't have such unrealistic expectations.

    The fact is, the women don't have financial woes. They live with their parents. Their rent is paid. Their food is paid. They just have to buy clothes and Hello Kitty dolls.


    Yes, as far as crumbling gender relations and plummeting birth and marriage rates.

    Sex is a point that you chose to emphasize.
    No, you were the one who posted a study about how the Japanese despise sex, not me.


    According to what standard?

    According to your own source, more than half of them make 2 to 6 million yen a year. Women simply tend to favor men on the higher end of the spectrum, which is why they remain single.

    How much does it cost to raise a family in Japan?
    More than most of the men are making, which is why they live at home with their parents

    Sound familiar?


    If it was purely "economic," it wouldn't be virtually universal to industrialized post-feminist societies.
    It's not universal and Japan is not a "post-feminist" society. It is a very sexist nation that clings to traditional gender roles. In fact, the article you link to even agrees. It says:
    The World Economic Forum consistently ranks Japan as one of the world’s worst nations for gender equality at work.
    Does that sound like a "post-feminist" society to you?



    The old model is still workable. People simply have to be willing to make it work. Many simply are not.
    The men will not increase their salaries by simply willing it into existence, just as you won't make a living by simply wishing for it.




    Here’s Why Nearly Half of Japanese Women Under 24 Aren’t Interested in Sex



    People can say whatever they want on a survey. Again, many unmarried childless women in their mid thirties to early forties here in the United States claim the same thing about "wanting" to be mothers and wifes.

    The simple fact of the matter is that their actions speak otherwise. If they wanted to be married, they would be. If it was a priority in their life, they would make it happen.

    It clearly is not.
    you don't seem to realize that the article contradicts your claim. You quoted things that are the exact opposite of what you're saying and you seem to think it agrees with you. I'll break it down for you

    Women are avoiding relationships of any kind, because there’s no support for them to skip getting married or to balance a family with a career.
    They're saying that in Japan, they are expected to get married and not work, which is consistent with traditional values. That's not feminism at work.

    Men, on the other hand, are feeling pressure to fit into a model of the perfect breadwinner.
    Again, consistent with traditional values.

    These problems have come to a head over the past couple decades. Women are increasingly earning college degrees and pursuing careers, but the country’s policies and company cultures have not kept up. Few employees provide adequate maternity leave or daycare. Women in some companies say it’s impossible to earn a promotion after getting married because bosses assume the woman will soon get pregnant and quit the job.
    Women are becoming more educated (inconsistent with traditional values) but once they graduate, they can't continue to work once they get married (consistent with traditional values)

    Some women and men told the Guardian that they steer away from sex in order to avoid developing long-term feelings that may lead to a serious relationship
    SO they don't want to have a serious relationship with someone they can't marry because the man does not earn enough to support a family (consistent with traditional values which discourage casual dating that does not lead to marriage)

    The problem in Japan is that they are clinging too stubbornly to the traditional model of marriage where the woman does not work, and the man is the sole provider.

    The article that *you* linked also talks about other factors, which you conveniently did not quote

    Japan, however, is no exception to rising costs of living, and supporting children on a one-person salary is often impossible.
    The men don't earn enough to support a family. Your own link says that it is "often impossible".

    And if they can't have a two-income marriage because, in Japan, they fire married women or at the very least, pass them over for promotions because they think the women will leave to take care of their children.


    For women especially, casual flings or one-night stands aren’t an alternative, as they fear being harshly judged. Men, on the other hand, say they don’t have enough money to play the dating game.
    These men don't even earn enough to be able to afford to date. Do you really think they can afford to support a family on their income?
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  9. #459
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Here's the link. Decide for yourself

    Japan




    Possibly, but my understanding is that this is not a new phenemona. It predates the Tsunami. I believe it began after the Japanese recession in the 80's and 90's and the move away from the "lifetime employment" model.
    Interesting. All true, what you said.

    Read an article a number of years back about the world's nation reproductive rates. Given a few more generations, and Japan might be largely uninhabited (i.e. the population would have died out from old age and lack of reproduction).

  10. #460
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    You have GOT to be kidding me... every single CON couple you know??? Is that like 3? I can't swing a dead cat in Walters Oklahoma, or my own family and not hit a Divorced CON or three! Look at the GOP leadership, a house of divorced men. Divorce is a fact of life visited on all political leans...
    Nope, dozens and dozens and dozens of them. Too bad so many people are doing marriage wrong.
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