View Poll Results: Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

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  • Yes

    72 70.59%
  • No

    23 22.55%
  • Does not apply to me.

    7 6.86%
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Thread: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

  1. #441
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Ah....is this not a parental issue then? I'm sure it's more complex...it was in the articles I just read here...but hey...who's enabling them?
    It's more complex.

    The shut-ins suffer from an extreme form of social anxiety and the symptoms usually begin in adolescence or even in childhood. In addition, the Japanese do not encourage gregariousness (though they do encourage politeness and consideration) and do value their shy children



    The "parasite singles" are a different matter. In Japan, there is no shame in living with your parents until the day you get married. In fact, it's expected. So yeah, there is a "parental" aspect to it, but it's something I see as more of a cultural matter than a parenting issue.
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  2. #442
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Again, not really, as most of the rest of the world suffers from many of the same problems as Japan, regardless of the economic factors at play.

    This is simply the result modern notions of "gender roles" seem to bring about. More women avoiding relationships, marriage, and procreation in favor of other pursuits, and more men losing their own place in society and falling into something of a "perpetual adolescence" as they don't see the point in trying to better themselves.

    Japan simply happens to be the most extreme case.
    Then we can dispense Japan as a discussion point.



    They're already giving up marriage and family. Whether they give up sex as well is ultimately incidental
    .

    That was your point. They would give up human intimacy. Again, that was in relation to the Japanese, so we can dispense with this point too.

    I was simply pointing out that the same general trends exist in both cultures.
    General, but there is no point on lamenting the end of human procreation because selfish women choose careers over having a family. That isn't even the case in Japan, as Sangha has said more than once.

    Yes, the productive portion that keeps the rest of the system afloat.
    That is a different problem than a population dying out because traditional gender roles are not being observed, in general.



    It is what it is.

    However, we can observe from simply looking at the culture we inhabit that it tends to bring about certain, very negative, impacts. It leads men to become socially aimless and unmotivated, and it leads to declining birthrates which jeopardize the sustainability of society as a whole.
    Women not committing their lives to make babies, does not lead men to become socially aimless and unmotivated. Where is that observable?

    What's observable is that women are damned if they do or don't. Some men complain about the blood sucking women who are out to get married to the richest guy. When women adjust to make ourselves self-sufficient, we are letting down society by not making enough babies. You guys need to make up your minds. Or possibly you have and the only acceptable role for a woman is to take the first dude that crosses our path and start popping out babies and servitude to that man?

    What is an acceptable role for women? Describe your perfect woman and your best hope for the nation, as it relates to the position women should occupy in the U.S.
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    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
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  3. #443
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    The point here is to rebut your position that simply paying for school taxes means that they've paid their way. Making a contribution doesn't equal paying your way. A child with a paper route contributes to the family's finances but that doesn't mean that he's not still a financial cost for the family.
    I pay for those services, like public schools, every day of my entire working life...which has been since about age 16. And I'm not impressed with much of what I've paid for.
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    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
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  4. #444
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    I feel like a damn marriage counselor here.

    What I see Gath arguing is that women's choices in Japan are moderated by a vision of an economic lifestyle. To get married to a man who can't provide that lifestyle would entail a step down, either in terms of their ideal or an actual step-down in their current lifestyle if the man is the only breadwinner. The women COULD have the married lifestyle they claim to want but it would come at an unacceptable cost in terms of income/wealth.
    I think that because I have been involved in several discussion about this issue with him, I have a little more insight into his position.

    The argument is not merely "Is this being caused by cultural factors or economic factors, or both?" We agree that it's both but we disagree over what the specific factors are. Gath thinks it's caused by feminism which enables women to make more money and encourages them to abandon their traditional values and prefer careers over marriage. My position is that, in Japan, the problem is that men don't make as much money and women are unwilling to abandon the traditional value of marrying a man that makes enough to support a family.
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  5. #445
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No one has based causation on a single chart. Instead, Gath has claimed that the low marriage rates in japan is caused by women who value their careers over marriage and done so without showing *any* facts to support the claim.

    The chart shows a lowered participation rate in the workforce by women. One would think that if more women today considered a career more important than they used to, then that would result in an increase in the participation rate for them and not a decrease.
    OK. Fair enough.

    Are we sure that the chart is for Japanese women? Or is this study on US women?

    I wonder if the present conditions in Japan, i.e. recovering from the Tsunami (if Japanese women), and the recession, wouldn't have some sort of impact on that as well. Seems that there are far too many variables here might have something to do with this trending.

  6. #446
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I pay for those services, like public schools, every day of my entire working life...which has been since about age 16. And I'm not impressed with much of what I've paid for.
    First off, the rationale for public schooling is that it improves society, not that the taxes are some indirect way of paying for your own children's schooling.

    Secondly, we certainly do pay through the nose for schooling, but with confounding factors controlled, our students are near the very top in comparison to other Western nations.

  7. #447
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    OK. Fair enough.

    Are we sure that the chart is for Japanese women? Or is this study on US women?
    Here's the link. Decide for yourself

    Japan


    I wonder if the present conditions in Japan, i.e. recovering from the Tsunami (if Japanese women), and the recession, wouldn't have some sort of impact on that as well. Seems that there are far too many variables here might have something to do with this trending.
    Possibly, but my understanding is that this is not a new phenemona. It predates the Tsunami. I believe it began after the Japanese recession in the 80's and 90's and the move away from the "lifetime employment" model.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  8. #448
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Pay attention and focus!

    The comment you are responding to was in response to your claim that the Japanese despise sex and that we are heading in the same direction.
    Then that was your mistake, not mine. That was never the major focus of my argument here.

    Again pay attention and focus!!

    You argued that we are headed in the same direction as Japan, where the young adults despise sex.
    No, I did not. I claimed that many of the same trends were present, and that we might eventually wind up with a society where most people avoid relationships.

    This could conceivably result in more people becoming disenchanted with sex as well as virtual alternatives become more widely available, but that is not a given.

    I pointed out that tradition does not support people marrying mates that were unsuitable because they were not capable of fulfilling their traditional role (as a provider).
    Their standards for what qualifies as being "suitable" are clearly unrealistic. That is a personal choice on their own part, not a necessity.

    You responded that poor people have been marrying other poor people for ages. If the Japanese are not poor, then why did you mention how poor people have a tradition of marrying other poor people?
    To point out that marriage is not necessarily dependent upon income. Refusing to consider marrying someone who could conceivably provide for you, simply because they are not able to provide in the way that you might ideally desire, is a matter of choice, not necessity.

    It shows that the women you claim are unwilling to give up their careers in order to get married do not even have careers. If a career was becoming more and more important to Japanese women then their participation in the workforce would be increasing, not decreasing.
    And if marriage is really as important to them as you claim, they should be gladly rushing into the arms of men to make up for their financial woes.

    Why aren't they?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Again, pay attention and focus!

    You claimed that modern societies are failing in the same way as Japan is.
    Yes, as far as crumbling gender relations and plummeting birth and marriage rates.

    Sex is a point that you chose to emphasize.

    Actually, as the article I linked to shows, most Japanese men are in a situation similar to yours - they do not make enough to support a family.
    According to what standard?

    Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]-a01002en_fig021-jpg

    According to your own source, more than half of them make 2 to 6 million yen a year. Women simply tend to favor men on the higher end of the spectrum, which is why they remain single.

    How much does it cost to raise a family in Japan?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I am glad to see that you have finally acknowledged that the problem is economic and not being caused by a culture discarding traditional gender roles.

    Or have you?
    If it was purely "economic," it wouldn't be virtually universal to industrialized post-feminist societies.

    The old model is still workable. People simply have to be willing to make it work. Many simply are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I have posted extensive evidence so if you haven't seen it, it is because you have once again ignored it.

    And you have posted no evidence to support your claim that the japanese do not want to be burdened with the expectations of traditional marriage. I have posted evidence that they want a traditional marriage (90% want it) but that their economic situation makes those traditional values unrealistic.

    Even you have described the Japanese women who want to marry a man who can be the sole provider as having "unrealistic expectations"
    Here’s Why Nearly Half of Japanese Women Under 24 Aren’t Interested in Sex

    In Japan, men and women are declaring, “Mendokusai!”—”It’s too troublesome!”—about relationships, reports the Guardian. Women are avoiding relationships of any kind, because there’s no support for them to skip getting married or to balance a family with a career. Men, on the other hand, are feeling pressure to fit into a model of the perfect breadwinner. The local media has its own name for these choices, according to the Guardian: “celibacy syndrome.”

    ...

    These problems have come to a head over the past couple decades. Women are increasingly earning college degrees and pursuing careers, but the country’s policies and company cultures have not kept up. Few employees provide adequate maternity leave or daycare. Women in some companies say it’s impossible to earn a promotion after getting married because bosses assume the woman will soon get pregnant and quit the job.

    ...

    Some women and men told the Guardian that they steer away from sex in order to avoid developing long-term feelings that may lead to a serious relationship
    People can say whatever they want on a survey. Again, many unmarried childless women in their mid thirties to early forties here in the United States claim the same thing about "wanting" to be mothers and wives.

    The simple fact of the matter is that their actions speak otherwise. If they wanted to be married, they would be. If it was a priority in their life, they would make it happen.

    It clearly is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    What? Where did you discuss technology with me?
    I mentioned internet pornography earlier.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 02-25-14 at 09:34 PM.

  9. #449
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, it is not true in Japan. As I have proven, single Japanese have a lot of interest in marriage and creating a family. And contrary to your claims about how feminism is at fault, in Japan the problem is that married women are expected to not work, making it difficult if not impossible for young people to have a two-income family. The one income family is unrealistic (because most Japanese men do not make enough) and the two income family is unrealistic (because the Japanese look down on married women who work, so they don't hire married women).

    It's not feminism that causes the Japanese to look down on married women who work. It's traditional values.
    The whole resentment of 'materialism' keeps showing up in his posts on this subject and it makes some sense now since he just admitted he was broke.

    One does need to use less myopic judgement on social trends for an accurate view.

    Kinda rude to keep dissing people, esp. women, who want to have 'more' in life if that's what they want, instead of keeping house and raising kids, as 'materialistic.' I'm certainly not judging poverty (but I'm not claiming it's any high road either).
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    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
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  10. #450
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    First off, the rationale for public schooling is that it improves society, not that the taxes are some indirect way of paying for your own children's schooling.

    Secondly, we certainly do pay through the nose for schooling, but with confounding factors controlled, our students are near the very top in comparison to other Western nations.
    I'm very aware of the first.

    I am not aware at all that the second is true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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