View Poll Results: Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

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  • Yes

    72 70.59%
  • No

    23 22.55%
  • Does not apply to me.

    7 6.86%
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Thread: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

  1. #421
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Which was my point. Technology is enabling many of the same things here.

    It really isn't especially inconceivable that we could eventually wind up with many of the same problems if current trends continue.
    What? Where did you discuss technology with me?
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  2. #422
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yes, traditional gender roles are unrealistic for a modern society. Their preference to marry according to traditional values is not suitable for the modern era


    So then I take it you don't want to be married with children, have a career, live in your own home, and be generally independent? You have put other priorities first?
    I agree with you but I dont really understand what's wrong with the whole 'materialistic convenience' thing, lol If they dont have jobs or careers, they arent going to be able to afford a whole lot of materialistic goods but if you dont have kids you can certainly afford more and be more independent.

    And if they dont "like sex?" which some of those articles seem to imply or at least not enough to go out and get it...well, I *do not* see that happening in the US! That's just crazy.
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  3. #423
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Did you just try to quantify procreation in fiscal terms?
    If you're going to have a social welfare system which engages in generational transfers then you have to do this.

  4. #424
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    What sangha is pointing out is that there is not a deterministic path here. There is cultural moderation on the signal and response.

    Japanese culture is very honor focused. This by itself is going to distort the response to the signal. The signal in Japan is tied to the economy - fewer jobs for salarymen means fewer able to live the salaryman ideal. I take sangha's point to be that America doesn't have to contend with those cultural vectors.



    Here's what I see going on and maybe this can reconcile the two viewpoints you guys are advancing. The rise of women's liberation in the US occurred much earlier than in Japan and our culture has been less rigid in response to every change that has happened. What we're seeing in Japan looks like what we're seeing in the US but the root causes differ. In Japan this issue is being driven by labor market changes rippling out into the sexual market place. In the US, the primary driver of this phenomenon is the advance of feminism and this is rippling out into the sexual market place. Feminism is taking root in Japan and the changes there are following the trajectory pioneered in the West, but that trajectory is shallower in effect and not as far advanced, so the effect size in Japan, while still present, is small and it's really labor market changes driving the issue there.



    In Japan, it appears that a lot of women are willing to give up their careers but they need a salaryman in their life to make that happen. The guys who can't be salarymen are withdrawing from having to face what they see as failure and the women are not lowering their expectations.
    That's a whole lot closer to what I've been saying than what Gath has been arguing.

    Gath believes that the problem is, at it's root, caused by various societies abandoning their traditional values. However, the problem in Japan is the exact opposite of that. People aren't remaining single because they value their career over family. They are remaining single because they are stubbornly clinging to the traditional value that the man should be the provider even though their economy no longer makes that possible.

    In addition, the problem is exacerbated because their employers continue to adhere to the traditional value of undervaluing the women workers, particularly if they are married. This makes becoming a two-income family nearly impossible as a practical matter. In addition, there's the cultural reality that there is a social stigma attached to married women who work.

    As a result, the majority can not marry and depend solely on the man's income, nor can they marry and depend on them both having an adequate income. It's a Catch-22 situation caused by their clinging to traditional values. In order to change, they need to change. They must accept that married women won't and can not be nothing more than homemakers and that a two-income family model is acceptable.
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  5. #425
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    You really have a hard on for that book dude. It barely even crossed my mind. so little of my posts were based on it. What, were you interviewed in it or something?
    Btw, do you know what a psychologist does? Somehow I doubt it. Go ahead and google it though, since you have already exposed your ignorance once again.

  6. #426
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Unfruitful sexual activity is no different than not having sex at all. Your argument fails.

    The simple fact of the matter is that virtually all "modern" industrialized nations are having problems relating to low birth rates, low marriage rates, and crumbling gender relations. That is the "failure" to which I alluded, not anything specifically having to do with sex.

    Japan simply happens to be the most extreme case. It is not, however; necessarily inconceivable that the same could happen here.
    Again, pay attention and focus!

    You claimed that modern societies are failing in the same way as Japan is.

    Most "modern" societies are failing in the same way Japan is.
    Japan has a lot of young adults who despise sex. Please name the modern societies where the young adults despise sex.

    Japan has a lot of young adults who are sexually inactive. Please name the modern societies where the young adults are sexually inactive.


    Who says I'm not adhering to them? The simple fact of the matter is that I'm broke and have nothing to offer at the time being. Women would be wise to avoid me, and I them until my circumstances improve.
    So you're poor?

    Someone once told me that poor people have been marrying other poor people for ages. You are obviously not adhering to that tradition.


    Most Japanese men are not in my situation, but women are refusing to enter into relationships with them anyway; preferring to remain single to having to deal with the "hassle" of a man unless he happens to be wealthy in a manner which greatly exceeds the national average.
    Actually, as the article I linked to shows, most Japanese men are in a situation similar to yours - they do not make enough to support a family.

    And you are refusing to enter into a marital relationship with women, preferring to remain single to having to deal with the "hassle" of a woman unless she meets some unspoken qualifications which are obviously unrealistic given your situation.

    But it's OK when you do it.
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  7. #427
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Because Japan, as you admit, is an extreme case. But then, it's you have been arguing that it's selfishness driving the marriage and birth rate down. It turns out that their decisions have harsh economic realities driving their choices.
    Again, not really, as most of the rest of the world suffers from many of the same problems as Japan, regardless of the economic factors at play.

    This is simply the result modern notions of "gender roles" seem to bring about. More women avoiding relationships, marriage, and procreation in favor of other pursuits, and more men losing their own place in society and falling into something of a "perpetual adolescence" as they don't see the point in trying to better themselves.

    Japan simply happens to be the most extreme case.

    Yes, the U.S. has economic pressure, but not to the degree the Japanese do nor the cultural pressures they live under which make it considerably less likely single people here will give up sex.
    They're already giving up marriage and family. Whether they give up sex as well is ultimately incidental.

    I was simply pointing out that the same general trends exist in both cultures.

    You mean a specific segment of the population are not having children at replacement level. The wealthy and middle class.
    Yes, the productive portion that keeps the rest of the system afloat.

    We are back to my original reply to you:

    What is wrong with them putting other priorities first? Men do this. Why is it that women automatically need to sacrifice their lives to be brood mares? Some women don't have a maternal instinct. God bless them for knowing themselves enough not to put kids through the agony of being raised by a mother who didn't really want them.
    It is what it is.

    However, we can observe from simply looking at the culture we inhabit that it tends to bring about certain, very negative, impacts. It leads men to become socially aimless and unmotivated, and it leads to declining birthrates which jeopardize the sustainability of society as a whole.

  8. #428
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    And? How does this differ significantly from the rest of the industrialized world?
    I am glad to see that you have finally acknowledged that the problem is economic and not being caused by a culture discarding traditional gender roles.

    Or have you?
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  9. #429
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    I dunno. Isn't basing a causation assumption on a single chart rather risky? Risky in the sense that it's not likely to be correct?

    There could be a bunch of different reasons, other than marriage, for employment rates for unmarried women to fall. I'd think that more information would be needed to make that leap.
    No one has based causation on a single chart. Instead, Gath has claimed that the low marriage rates in japan is caused by women who value their careers over marriage and done so without showing *any* facts to support the claim.

    The chart shows a lowered participation rate in the workforce by women. One would think that if more women today considered a career more important than they used to, then that would result in an increase in the participation rate for them and not a decrease.
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    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
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    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #430
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    I have seen absolutely no evidence to support this conclusion other than your own assertions. Basically every other source which has been presented on the subject (which include actual testimony from young Japanese people themselves, no less) says that the major problem is that they do not want to be burdened with the expectations of traditional marriage in the first place.

    They view it as being too "troublesome" to work, and would rather go it alone.
    I have posted extensive evidence so if you haven't seen it, it is because you have once again ignored it.

    And you have posted no evidence to support your claim that the japanese do not want to be burdened with the expectations of traditional marriage. I have posted evidence that they want a traditional marriage (90% want it) but that their economic situation makes those traditional values unrealistic.

    Even you have described the Japanese women who want to marry a man who can be the sole provider as having "unrealistic expectations"
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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