View Poll Results: Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

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  • Yes

    72 70.59%
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    23 22.55%
  • Does not apply to me.

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Thread: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

  1. #1591
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    An instinct which serves . . No Purpose? What purposes do the instincts for the other moral values serve?
    Every moral value is not necessarily purely based in an instinctual behavior. For the vast majority of human evolution we have been hunter / gatherers, As hunter gatherers an instinctual loyalty to one's group had distinct advantages for survival and propagation.

    By being cognizant of it, I mean that one objectively look at their predisposed behavior. For example, one might naturally feel more comfortable being loyal to those they see in their group such as those that look like them, have the same culture, religious beliefs, ethnicity and so on. By recognizing that as an instinctual behavior rather than one actually based in reason, one can counter such predisposed behavior with reason and thus empathize with others.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    If that is the basis they are going on then I can see why I disagree entirely with his work.
    If his assessment doesn't apply entirely to you then that doesn't necessarily mean that his assessment is wrong for you might not be the median example of what constitutes a libertarian.

    I certainly have libertarian leanings and I've engaged with libertarians and I tend to agree with his research conclusions. The autistic libertarians drive me batty, kind of like the doctrinaire communists. The logical constructs of their world views are pretty alien to a lot of people. Have you seen the open-borders libertarians try to make their case? They certainly do come across as unemotional to me. That doesn't have to mean that every libertarian fits that template. The systematic world view sure looks accurate to me. I tend to prefer that myself rather than a worldview wracked and whipsawed by emotion, but I don't find that description insulting.

    He was framing in a way that made them morally superior.
    It's always difficult to take the measure of a man by a small sample of his writing. I've been reading Haidt's work for nearly a decade, long before he became a public intellectual. He's pretty good at checking his own bias and shooting fire at the liberalism of his colleagues and profession.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Every moral value is not necessarily purely based in an instinctual behavior. For the vast majority of human evolution we have been hunter / gatherers, As hunter gatherers an instinctual loyalty to one's group had distinct advantages for survival and propagation.

    By being cognizant of it, I mean that one objectively look at their predisposed behavior. For example, one might naturally feel more comfortable being loyal to those they see in their group such as those that look like them, have the same culture, religious beliefs, ethnicity and so on. By recognizing that as an instinctual behavior rather than one actually based in reason, one can counter such predisposed behavior with reason and thus empathize with others.
    But there are rational reasons. I subscribe to that reasoning. It convinces me. It's pretty tight reasoning too, so it's not confirmation bias that we're dealing with here.

    It's funny what you're doing. Again, you're fleshing out Haidt's categorization. You just don't see the reasoning. It's quite likely that you could follow the logic of it but the right neurochemicals would not be triggered and so it just wouldn't "feel" right to you.

    For example, I'll offer up one point. People will feel a deeper bond with someone who shares common history, common values, common behaviors, etc. This is the opposite of diversity. The high level of trust induces willingness to sacrifice and to share for the common good. That is absent in more diverse societies.

    Can you convince yourself to empathize with a man who values Clitoridectomy as a practice to be inflicted upon his wife and daughters? As a viewpoint and cultural practice, that's pretty damn diverse from what most liberals in the West subscribe to. Can you leapfrog your loyalties and empathy over that chasm?

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    If his assessment doesn't apply entirely to you then that doesn't necessarily mean that his assessment is wrong for you might not be the median example of what constitutes a libertarian.
    It's not so much about me, but about the basis of the research. I don't agree with their view on morality.

    I certainly have libertarian leanings and I've engaged with libertarians and I tend to agree with his research conclusions. The autistic libertarians drive me batty, kind of like the doctrinaire communists. The logical constructs of their world views are pretty alien to a lot of people. Have you seen the open-borders libertarians try to make their case? They certainly do come across as unemotional to me. That doesn't have to mean that every libertarian fits that template. The systematic world view sure looks accurate to me. I tend to prefer that myself rather than a worldview wracked and whipsawed by emotion, but I don't find that description insulting.
    Libertarians that recognize borders in the sand puzzle me. A nations border is illogical and serves no purpose. It is method of separation and control by the government. A person from Mexico, a person from the US, and a person from Canada have no reason to be sorted in such manners. Nation states serve a purpose in that they provide people choices of governance, but the fact a choice is necessary shows weakness in man, but it is also that weakness that makes them even more illogical to maintain. The military complex is a cancer on the world and it is that very division that keeps people supporting it. It has permitted the state to wage what are essentially acts of legalized murder on a grand scale for centuries almost always in the name of power. Classical liberals were right when they said that a standing army can not be permitted to exist. It is an artifact of the past that is counter to peace, which is the very cornerstone of morality.

    Some will argue that it is simply the property of a country, but it is illogical for a nation to own anything. People have the right to own the earth because they can provide their labor towards it and therefore have the right to do with it as they see fit, but the nation is simply the collective organization of self defense, which would mean the property of the nation if it exists at all would couldn't possibly be the property of the state, but simply be maintained in it's natural state. I can live with borders, but they are not logical. I suppose I'm proving your point, but I don't understand the emotional appeal to a nations border.

    It's always difficult to take the measure of a man by a small sample of his writing. I've been reading Haidt's work for nearly a decade, long before he became a public intellectual. He's pretty good at checking his own bias and shooting fire at the liberalism of his colleagues and profession.
    The original link by taco and the research was heavily leaning in favor of liberal thought. It would honestly surprise me to find out he is not a liberal himself.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    It's not so much about me, but about the basis of the research. I don't agree with their view on morality.



    Libertarians that recognize borders in the sand puzzle me. A nations border is illogical and serves no purpose. It is method of separation and control by the government. A person from Mexico, a person from the US, and a person from Canada have no reason to be sorted in such manners. Nation states serve a purpose in that they provide people choices of governance, but the fact a choice is necessary shows weakness in man, but it is also that weakness that makes them even more illogical to maintain. The military complex is a cancer on the world and it is that very division that keeps people supporting it. It has permitted the state to wage what are essentially acts of legalized murder on a grand scale for centuries almost always in the name of power. Classical liberals were right when they said that a standing army can not be permitted to exist. It is an artifact of the past that is counter to peace, which is the very cornerstone of morality.

    Some will argue that it is simply the property of a country, but it is illogical for a nation to own anything. People have the right to own the earth because they can provide their labor towards it and therefore have the right to do with it as they see fit, but the nation is simply the collective organization of self defense, which would mean the property of the nation if it exists at all would couldn't possibly be the property of the state, but simply be maintained in it's natural state. I can live with borders, but they are not logical. I suppose I'm proving your point, but I don't understand the emotional appeal to a nations border.



    The original link by taco and the research was heavily leaning in favor of liberal thought. It would honestly surprise me to find out he is not a liberal himself.
    Whaaaatt?

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I suppose I'm proving your point, but I don't understand the emotional appeal to a nations border.
    I like you and agree with you on a number of topics, so don't take it badly when I write that I'm laughing with you, not at you. Yeah, you are proving my point. What I never see addressed is how to reconcile social welfare spending (it's never going away) with libertarian theory, how cultural values can separate peoples and the behavioral genetics aspects of race can be reconciled with libertarian theory. The world is messy this way. Libertarianism seems to me to presuppose a neat, logical world peopled by "Economic Man."

    On civil liberties, libertarians do a bang up job in fighting the Totalitarian Liberalism that is shat upon us but the impulse to extend those liberties to everyone irrespective of nationality takes the principle too far, IMO. I certainly don't want to live under Totalitarian Liberalism and I don't want to live in an atomized society of Libertarian purity. I want community. I want to be a part of something greater than myself. I want to be bound to other people - I'll get their back and they'll get mine. That reality is found between the Totalitarianism of Liberalism and the Purity of Libertarianism.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Whaaaatt?
    Franz Oppenheimer once defined the State as the “organization of the political means”—the systematization of the predatory process over a given territorial area." It is a fact of the world that it is the division of land into territorial governmental monopolies that leads to destruction on a grand scale.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Franz Oppenheimer once defined the State as the “organization of the political means”—the systematization of the predatory process over a given territorial area." It is a fact of the world that it is the division of land into territorial governmental monopolies that leads to destruction on a grand scale.
    Yeah, well, it's kind of silly to concentrate on something SO unrealistic.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    It would honestly surprise me to find out he is not a liberal himself.
    Here is how he directs fire into his own camp:

    He polled his audience at the San Antonio Convention Center, starting by asking how many considered themselves politically liberal. A sea of hands appeared, and Dr. Haidt estimated that liberals made up 80 percent of the 1,000 psychologists in the ballroom. When he asked for centrists and libertarians, he spotted fewer than three dozen hands. And then, when he asked for conservatives, he counted a grand total of three.

    This is a statistically impossible lack of diversity,” Dr. Haidt concluded, noting polls showing that 40 percent of Americans are conservative and 20 percent are liberal. In his speech and in an interview, Dr. Haidt argued that social psychologists are a “tribal-moral community” united by “sacred values” that hinder research and damage their credibility — and blind them to the hostile climate they’ve created for non-liberals.

    “Anywhere in the world that social psychologists see women or minorities underrepresented by a factor of two or three, our minds jump to discrimination as the explanation,” said Dr. Haidt, who called himself a longtime liberal turned centrist. “But when we find out that conservatives are underrepresented among us by a factor of more than 100, suddenly everyone finds it quite easy to generate alternate explanations.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Yeah, well, it's kind of silly to concentrate on something SO unrealistic.
    Did you ever notice that wars are fought between nations, and it's why people say such things as "a war between nations", instead of saying "a war between the people of nations"? Countries love to fight each other, don't they? Isn't it interesting that we are defending the state in a fight that many times it picked? Did you ever notice that every offense that people say will be created under anarchy are almost all legally sanctioned by the state? Find me something that people will say will happen in anarchy and I will provide you with exactly how it is already part of government. That is the enjoyment of talking to people on this forum. They never understand exactly what they are saying. They support a policy that forces someone into action and then they speak of freedom. I laugh at them from my computer chair knowing they don't even realize how foolish they really are.
    Last edited by Henrin; 03-12-14 at 03:49 AM.

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