View Poll Results: Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

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  • Yes

    72 70.59%
  • No

    23 22.55%
  • Does not apply to me.

    7 6.86%
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Thread: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

  1. #1581
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    But the whole "Moral Foundations Theory" predisposes that respect for tradition is a moral value. I don't get that at all.
    Meh, I'm not buying it. I think morals are different than beliefs.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    That predisposes though that respect / submission to tradition is a moral value and that loyalty to one's group is a moral value. I think care / harm, fairness / cheating, and liberty / oppression are certainly moral values that just about everyone would agree on as being moral values. The other two are much more subjective though. For example, I think you should be loyal to your family, but I don't understand why respect for tradition is a moral value at all.

    Maybe they are moral values, but as a moral value they are certainly off my radar screen. Its kind of like how some people sense and perceive while others feel and judge. The latter group is far more prone to having gut feelings. I can honestly say that i don't think I have ever had a gut feeling in my life. So I suppose we are all wired up quite differently.
    This is a very interesting comment that you've made. It nicely illustrates the very point that Haidt is making. You're honestly trying to assess the validity of his schema and you find it wanting on the two values that liberals lack but which conservatives have.

    Now how do you respond when I tell you that I do understand the moral value of group loyalty and respect for tradition. I get it. You know what respecting group loyalty gets me when liberals see it? The charge of racism. The charge of bigotry.

    We could spend pages of comments here building up arguments for each of the values, developing them step by step, because they can all be supported via argument, but if the two conservative values don't resonate with you then I would suggest that this is signaling that you lean liberal in your moral universe.

  3. #1583
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    We agree.



    Here's my point - just because a parent engages in the practice of socializing her child to a parental norm doesn't imply that the lesson has stuck, even if the child begins to behave in the desired manner. This is so because we haven't controlled for the heritability of behavior. Does the parent hold that value because they too were socialized into holding that value or does the parent hold that value because it feels right, because there is something innate in the parent which allows that value to be expressed?

    Here's Scientific American interviewing Harris:

    But my primary motive was scientific. During the years I spent writing child development textbooks for college students, I never questioned the belief that parents have a good deal of power to shape the personalities of their children. (This is the belief I now call the “nurture assumption.”) When I finally began to have doubts and looked more closely at the evidence, I was appalled. Most of the research is so deeply flawed that it is meaningless. And studies using more rigorous methods produce results that do not support the assumption. . . .

    There has also been some improvement in research methodology, due not to my nagging but to a greater awareness of genetic influences on personality. It’s no longer enough to show, for example, that parents who are conscientious about childrearing tend to have children who are conscientious about their schoolwork. Is this correlation due to what the children learned from their parents or to the genes they inherited from them? Studies using the proper controls consistently favor the second explanation. In fact, personality resemblances between biological relatives are due almost entirely to heredity, rather than environment. Adopted children don’t resemble their adoptive parents in personality. I’m not particularly interested in genetic effects, but the point is that they have to be taken into account. Unless we know what the child brings to the environment, we can’t figure out what effect the environment has on the child. . . .

    The belief that parents have a great deal of power to determine how their children will turn out is actually a rather new idea. Not until the middle of the last century did ordinary parents start believing it. I was born in 1938, before the cultural change, and parenting had a very different job description back then. Parents didn’t feel they had to sacrifice their own convenience and comfort in order to gratify the desires of their children. They didn’t worry about boosting the self-esteem of their children. In fact, they often felt that too much attention and praise might spoil them and make them conceited. Physical punishment was used routinely for infractions of household rules. Fathers provided little or no child care; their chief role at home was to administer discipline.

    All these things have changed dramatically in the past 70 years, but the changes haven’t had the expected effects. People are the same as ever. Despite the reduction in physical punishment, today’s adults are no less aggressive than their grandparents were. Despite the increase in praise and physical affection, they are not happier or more self-confident or in better mental health. It’s an interesting way to test a theory of child development: persuade millions of parents to rear their children in accordance with the theory, and then sit back and watch the results come in. Well, the results are in and they don’t support the theory!
    There is a ton of debate in science over this though. Personally I think E.O. Wilson's Sociobiology Theory is the best one and that almost all of our behavior was instilled through evolution and thus we are far more instinctual than we realize.

    That said I am not sure what this guy is getting at because by almost any measure we are a statistically more peaceful society in a statistically more peaceful world than possibly ever before today.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    This is a very interesting comment that you've made. It nicely illustrates the very point that Haidt is making. You're honestly trying to assess the validity of his schema and you find it wanting on the two values that liberals lack but which conservatives have.

    Now how do you respond when I tell you that I do understand the moral value of group loyalty and respect for tradition. I get it. You know what respecting group loyalty gets me when liberals see it? The charge of racism. The charge of bigotry.

    We could spend pages of comments here building up arguments for each of the values, developing them step by step, because they can all be supported via argument, but if the two conservative values don't resonate with you then I would suggest that this is signaling that you lean liberal in your moral universe.
    I am certain that I lean liberal in my moral universe. I think group loyalty is an instinctual artifact of evolution though, rather than a moral value.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    There is a ton of debate in science over this though. Personally I think E.O. Wilson's Sociobiology Theory is the best one and that almost all of our behavior was instilled through evolution and thus we are far more instinctual than we realize.
    As JUDITH (not a dude) noted, there as a lot of controversy, but controversy defending bad methodology doesn't signify that there are two valid and competing models battling it out. Lots of what we think we know about personality development never controlled for the heritability of behavior, for genetics, so we can't really say that those studies are valid. As she also noted, when proper controls were instituted, the environmental factors were mostly wiped off the map. So in my review of that literature I'm not really seeing the controversy you allude to.

    As for Wilson, I don't disagree with your assessment.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I am certain that I lean liberal in my moral universe. I think group loyalty is an instinctual artifact of evolution though, rather than a moral value.
    Let's play with that position. So what if it is? What should we do about it? Should we train people to ignore their instinct? Can people be trained to ignore what they feel is right? Essentially, should we form "Reeducation Camps for Conservatives" to train them to think like liberals?

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Let's play with that position. So what if it is? What should we do about it? Should we train people to ignore their instinct? Can people be trained to ignore what they feel is right? Essentially, should we form "Reeducation Camps for Conservatives" to train them to think like liberals?
    No of course not, but rather we ought to be cognizant of what is most likely purely an instinctual belief.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    I'd suggest that you give Haidt's work more attention. It maps pretty damn well to observable reality. This puts him into a different league than most psychologists who do bull**** endlessly. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
    s predicted, libertarians showed lower levels of emotional responsiveness on standard measures of the moral emotions of disgust and empathy (Figure 3). Multivariate analyses indicate that, consistent with McAdams' personality model and previous research on these moral emotions, these dispositions relate to values, in ways which may predispose some individuals to choose to identify as libertarian. From an intuitionist perspective, libertarians' relative lack of emotional reactions may help explain the generally low levels of moral concern that we found in Study 1 (see also [25]). McCrae and Costa [51] argue that low levels of neuroticism, agreeableness, and extraversion are indicative of an unemotional style. Libertarians were the only group to report a more systematic, rather than empathic, way of understanding the world, a characteristic of men [62] that may explain why libertarianism appeals to men more than women. If morality is driven largely by emotional reactions, and if libertarians are less emotional on most of the measures we examined, then libertarians should be moved by fewer moral concerns, as was the case in Study 1.
    If that is the basis they are going on then I can see why I disagree entirely with his work.

    If you want to piss off liberals, quoting Haidt's work can be beneficial, it just depends on how harshly you can get the point across. For instance, look at how tacomancer phrased the distribution of morality and now watch this: liberals lack two moral values - they're simply deficient and they overcompensate by going through the roof on issues like equality, which means that conservatives can well understand the views of liberals because we overlap with their moral compass but liberals are completely baffled by how conservatives think because liberals are morally stunted. That will insult most liberals. The trick is to phrase it correctly, but still honestly report the findings.
    He was framing it in a way that made them morally superior. However, from my observation emotions leads people to be irrational, and as liberal prove everyday in their policies, immoral as well.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    You know what respecting group loyalty gets me when liberals see it? The charge of racism. The charge of bigotry.
    I'm going to point to another thread from this evening to illustrate the point above. Take a look:

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Now what precisely is racist about wanting to restrict immigration? Secondly, I'm going to assume that your concern is that the motivation for immigration restriction is rooted in stopping the spread of multiculturalism and if so, I'm still not understanding how wishing to maintain the culture of one's parents is Exhibit A in a trial of racism. If this is your argument then it seems that the only way to refute the charge of racism is to renounce a desire to maintain a "white culture" and to embrace some hybrid cultural mishmash. Are Japanese racists for wanting to maintain a distinct Japanese culture?
    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    . . if you can't see why all the things I've listed are examples of why the Repub party is perceived as racist, then honestly I don't know what to say to you except - Enjoy your bubble of denial.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    No of course not, but rather we ought to be cognizant of what is most likely purely an instinctual belief.
    An instinct which serves . . No Purpose? What purposes do the instincts for the other moral values serve?

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