View Poll Results: Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

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  • Yes

    72 70.59%
  • No

    23 22.55%
  • Does not apply to me.

    7 6.86%
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Thread: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

  1. #1561
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Not neutered?
    Recently. Was pregnant and could not give birth. Operation cost of $ 1200. But for a pet cat it is not sad.

  2. #1562
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Wait, what? Now you've turned the tables and you're arguing against the Blank Slate when you were previously arguing in favor of it? Did I miss that ju-jitsu move? When did I switch roles and begin arguing in favor of Blank Slatism?



    It looks to me like you're sending out ranging fire - going from extreme to extreme. A "hands off" approach isn't what is usually employed in orphanages. They all have rules, they all enforce behavior. The kids aren't free to do as they please. What the orphanages strive to do is "No Harm."



    That's fantastic but to extrapolate from an autistic child to all children is an invalid logical leap.



    Is that what you kids call it these days? Back in my day we called what you were doing "argument by assertion." Facts, huh? OK.
    I am beginning to think you misunderstood my original position and warped some of my statements out of proportion. Your debate style is a bit nit picky and I tend to be a big picture style thinker, so you bog me down in the minute details, which in the process of explaining those, I tend to forget my larger point until I switch my thinking mode back to what I tend to be good at. so the end result is a series of unlinked statements. If you want to understand my point, from my perspective, we need to stay big picture and with a mostly associative thought process.

    I do my concrete style thinking when I am wearing my engineering hat at work mostly, when I am building systems

    Lets start over, but this time I will state my reasoning. Children are by default selfish and self centered.

    because:
    Children start off with the task of learning themselves. Babies come out of the womb needing to learn how to perform basic motor functions such as grab things they want to and other functions such as distinguishing shape and color. They are self centered out of necessity because we all gotta start somewhere in the path to learning. So at a young age, they get good enough to learn to walk, speak, and engage in other social behaviors. However, they are still self centered because this is the only experience they have to go on thus far.

    The parent's job is to begin socializing them. while other kids can, children who are not fully socialized (and the vast majority are not, look at the majority of teenagers out there) make poor parents. There are exceptions of course, my girlfriend basically had to raise her sister at the age of 8, but they are exceptions and not generally the case. So as children mature, parents tend to have to be the ones to say things like "stop kicking your brother!" or "we need to learn to share" which are lessons in morality.

    This is not to say that your position cannot be true, children can find their way on their own, and sometimes this happens, but again, its not generally the case. Without parents or other role models to say things like "stop kicking your sister" children may not become aware that kicking their sister actually causes their sister pain. And in cases where they do, they may enjoy causing their sister pain (kids get in fights all the time and often for predatory reasons). Kids who are like this tend to be viewed as needing help growing up "that child needs discipline". If an adult acts like that "punching some guy out in a bar fight", they tend to be viewed as flawed. Its far more normal for children to behave in unsocial ways is my point.

    At some point, usually around the teenage years, the influencing of behavioral modeling from parents wears off, by then, its like the bird's first flight, will they apply the lessons they were taught or not? results tend to be mixed and often teenagers, once they get a bit of life experience tend to go back to those lessons and realize that they are important. However, if those lessons were never taught, any number of other reactions become far more likely to occur, but more often than not tend to still be self centered and unsocial.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-12-14 at 12:01 AM.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by loader View Post
    Recently. Was pregnant and could not give birth. Operation cost of $ 1200. But for a pet cat it is not sad.
    Yikes!

  4. #1564
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    yes, it grates against what you would like to see. How you feel about it is irrelevant. If you go further into Haidt's work, he tends to lean conservative in his praising. For example liberals tend to strongly emphasize 1 and 2 while ignoring 3-5. Conservatives tend to put equal weight on all five.

    And honestly, as a liberal, when I read 3-5 I kind of go WTF, those have no value! but the reason is simply my brain is not formed in a way that I have the structures built for that kind of thinking. This is both good and bad for various reasons (but then again EVERYTHING in life is both good and bad for various reasons, so thats not a very insightful statement)

    Number 6 was added because people complained, I will admit (I am not sure Haidt fully agrees with it), but liberty is a human want (we all want more freedom), just like people want more candy and nice cars. Its something we have to work to get (because life hands us nothing for free and the default state is deprivation of everything), so I am not sure it qualifies either.
    I really have no interest in going further into his work after reading his trash he put down there. Psychologists have a tendency to piss me off because they bull**** endlessly and this guy is a great example of that.

  5. #1565
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    The question would be did children growing up in orphanages have a higher statistical likelihood of developing anti-social personality disorder than children that grew up in traditional homes.
    When you seek to address that question you need to account for the condition of the children entering orphanages. Comparing an anti-social kid whose parents can't control him any longer and lose custody of him to a normal child in a traditional home and then assigning life outcomes for these two classes of children to their rearing environment is an invalid comparison.

    As an adoptive parent I can tell you that benign neglect in orphanages certainly can result in psychological and developmental issues.
    As can a number of other factors, ranging from irresponsible parental behavior, unrecognized predispositions, to outright harm to children via actions in the orphanage system. When an adoptive parent adopts, it's very difficult to pinpoint the root cause of a child's psychological and developmental issues. In contemporary America we no longer see middle and upper class (class here being used as a shorthand proxy for women who are not dealing with psychological issues of their own) girls being sent away to visit an aunt for 9 months where they can have a baby and turn it over to an orphanage.

  6. #1566
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I really have no interest in going further into his work after reading his trash he put down there. Psychologists have a tendency to piss me off because they bull**** endlessly and this guy is a great example of that.
    This is what always amuses me about you. You have one of the strongest information filters I have ever seen.

  7. #1567
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    This is what always amuses me about you. You have one of the strongest information filters I have ever seen.
    He didn't provide me anything of value. He passed judgments, made observations that are obviously biased judging by number six and then goes I understand everyone. It's crap.

  8. #1568
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    I am beginning to think you misunderstood my original position and warped some of my statements out of proportion. Your debate style is a bit nit picky and I tend to be a big picture style thinker, so you bog me down in the minute details, which in the process of explaining those, I tend to forget my larger point until I switch my thinking mode back to what I tend to be good at. so the end result is a series of unlinked statements. If you want to understand my point, from my perspective, we need to stay big picture and with a mostly associative thought process.
    this is the only part (bold) I would argue. he is the minutia master
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    He didn't provide me anything of value. He passed judgments, made observations that are obviously biased judging by number six and then goes I understand everyone. It's crap.
    case in point.

  10. #1570
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    When you seek to address that question you need to account for the condition of the children entering orphanages. Comparing an anti-social kid whose parents can't control him any longer and lose custody of him to a normal child in a traditional home and then assigning life outcomes for these two classes of children to their rearing environment is an invalid comparison.

    As can a number of other factors, ranging from irresponsible parental behavior, unrecognized predispositions, to outright harm to children via actions in the orphanage system. When an adoptive parent adopts, it's very difficult to pinpoint the root cause of a child's psychological and developmental issues. In contemporary America we no longer see middle and upper class (class here being used as a shorthand proxy for women who are not dealing with psychological issues of their own) girls being sent away to visit an aunt for 9 months where they can have a baby and turn it over to an orphanage.
    Why on earth are you choosing to argue a subject that you obviously know so little about? Many children in orphanages arrived there as infants. It is actually fairly rare for children that are taken from their parents to end up in orphanages or the foster system because in most cases there is another member of the family that can take them such as grandparents or aunts and uncles.

    Children in orphanages commonly have issues with bonding with their adoptive parents, making friends, many times they are sensitive to touch, have difficulties with social norms, have a hard time with empathy, can have anger issues, and a whole host of issues including a higher statistical likelihood of developing personality disorders. Obviously genetic factors come into play as well. Moreover, some personality types have better coping mechanisms than other types and thus are less likely to have issues (ISFJs are less likely to have personality disorders than INTJs for example). However, all things being equal, kids growing up in neglected environments are statistically more likely to develop personality disorders.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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