View Poll Results: Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

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Thread: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    To truly understand your morality you must first understand your nature that comes about from self-realization. Culture and society simply act as interference of sorts, but it does not shape the individual morality of people.
    To an extent, but a lot of it is also taught or perhaps just "expected" behaviors. If you grew up somewhere all alone without any kind of interaction with other people, what would your morals be based upon?

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    1.) Your position presupposes that a moral compass must be shaped. Does this shaping also extend to behaviors like jealousy, anger, temper, moodiness, etc. Do parents train their children in how to be jealous lovers when they are adults?
    Yes and hopefully not.

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    2.) I'm not arguing that orphanages are ideal institutions for caring for children. What I'm saying is that if an orphanage does no harm, then it's on par with parents who do no harm.
    Orphanages that do no harm are great, I am even sure a few probably exist somewhere for a few lucky children.

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    3.) To study the effects of orphanages on the personality development of children, we first need to control for the types of children who get placed into orphanages. A lot of these children are coming into both orphanages and foster-care systems because they already exhibit problem behaviors that their parents can't deal with or they're following the same path as their parents due to the heritability of behavioral traits which were already set when the parent abandoned the child, either overtly or through neglect and had the child removed from their custody. The best kids to look at are those who were placed into the orphanage in times when premarital birth was heavily stigmatized in America for that goes a long way towards addressing the selection effect - it wasn't only problem children who were placed into orphanages.
    I am sure for some children this is true, but not 70% of them. which is the incarceration rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    4.) How could children raised in orphanages EVER develop a moral compass if they had no parents to instill a moral compass into them? Whence comes this moral compass?
    You are arguing from an absolute, why?

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Parents teach a code of conduct, not morals.
    They teach both.

    Morality, like most things, is a social phenomenon. Morals differ from culture to culture.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    To an extent, but a lot of it is also taught or perhaps just "expected" behaviors. If you grew up somewhere all alone without any kind of interaction with other people, what would your morals be based upon?
    Such a person would basically be "feral." If historical examples are anything to go off of, they tend to be little better than mentally retarded more often than not specifically because of the lack of social stimulation in their developmental environment.

    A fairly strong argument can be made that a certain degree of human interaction and social integration is actually necessary for human beings to fully develop, in light of such facts.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 03-11-14 at 11:01 PM.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Such a person would basically be "feral." If historical examples are anything to go off of, they tend to be little better than mentally retarded more often than not due to the lack of social stimulation in their developmental environment.

    A fairly strong argument can be made that a certain degree of human interaction and social integration is actually necessary for human beings to fully develop, in light of such facts.
    That's my point, I don't think they would have "morals." They would basically just do whatever they felt they had to survive, but I wonder about a conscience. Is that something that is nurtured or natural? If a "feral" person was to kill another person, would they feel guilt about it? Do you think empathy is something that is taught or is it natural to feel sorry for a person who is suffering?

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    They teach both.

    Morality, like most things, is a social phenomenon. Morals differ from culture to culture.
    The only true way to understand something is to experience it yourself. I can tell you not to touch fire or you will get burned, but you will never truly understand the nature of fire until you have experience with it. While certain beliefs are either picked up by children or otherwise taught that can in turn change the make up of their moral character, the majority of what they understand as morality comes from personal experience and how they personally see the world around them. Personal growth is not found in the lessons of society, but in the understanding of the nature of things around you and of yourself.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Such a person would basically be "feral." If historical examples are anything to go off of, they tend to be little better than mentally retarded more often than not due to the lack of social stimulation in their developmental environment.

    A fairly strong argument can be made that a certain degree of human interaction and social integration is actually necessary for human beings to fully develop, in light of such facts.
    There are studies upon studies that show this.

    The Effect of Human Contact on Newborn Babies | LIVESTRONG.COM
    Infants who are touched gently on a regular basis gain weight and grow at better rates than babies who lack this contact. They also spend less time in the hospital after birth and have fewer medical complications in their first year of life.
    The Experience of Touch - Research Points to a Critical Role - NYTimes.com
    Touch is a means of communication so critical that its absence retards growth in infants, according to researchers who are for the first time determining the neurochemical effects of skin-to-skin contact.

    The new work focuses on the importance of touch itself, not merely as part of, say, a parent's loving presence. The findings may help explain the long-noted syndrome in which infants deprived of direct human contact grow slowly and even die.

    Psychological and physical stunting of infants deprived of physical contact, although otherwise fed and cared for, had been noted in the pioneering work of Harry Harlow, working with primates, and the psychoanalysts John Bowlby and Renee Spitz, who observed children orphaned in World War II.
    and that's just the effect of touch. Humanity is a social creature that needs to be around others to thrive, grow, and basically exist in any healthy way (in most cases, there are a few true loners out there, but they are really rare)

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    There are studies upon studies that show this.

    The Effect of Human Contact on Newborn Babies | LIVESTRONG.COM


    The Experience of Touch - Research Points to a Critical Role - NYTimes.com


    and that's just the effect of touch. Humanity is a social creature that needs to be around others to thrive, grow, and basically exist in any healthy way (in most cases, there are a few true loners out there, but they are really rare)
    Yes, but there are cases of feral children.

    Fascinating, this particular child lived just like an animal. Do you think he possessed qualities like empathy?

    A leopard-child was reported by EC Stuart Baker in the Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society (July 1920). The boy was stolen from his parents by a leopardess in the North Cachar Hills near Assam in about 1912, and three years later recovered and identified. “At the time the child ran on all fours almost as fast as an adult man could run, whilst in dodging in and out of bushes and other obstacles he was much cleverer and quicker. His knees had hard callosities on them and his toes were retained upright almost at right angles to his instep. The palms of his hands and pads of his toes and thumbs were also covered with very tough horny skin. When first caught, he bit and fought with everyone and any wretched village fowl which came within his reach was seized, torn to pieces and eaten with extraordinary rapidity.”
    Interesting link here.

    http://listverse.com/2008/03/07/10-m...eral-children/

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    That's my point, I don't think they would have "morals." They would basically just do whatever they felt they had to survive, but I wonder about a conscience. Is that something that is nurtured or natural? If a "feral" person was to kill another person, would they feel guilt about it? Do you think empathy is something that is taught or is it natural to feel sorry for a person who is suffering?
    Well, like I said, people raised completely absent of human contact often tend to be less than complete "human beings" in the first place. Most "feral" persons can't even master language or abstract reasoning, let alone social interactions that might require empathy or morality.

    As I recall, one rescued "wild boy" in India was actually killed later on because he tried to rape a local woman when he started to go through puberty, and she wound up dumping a pot of boiling water on him.

    While they might feel some inkling of emotions and instinctual impulses which can be said to resemble basic "morality," I think it can be fairly said that their understanding of such concepts is, at best, incomplete in comparison to a more typical person. Lacking the stimulation social contact provides, many areas of their brains simply wind up remaining fundamentally undeveloped in many regards, which leaves them mentally deficient coming into adulthood.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 03-11-14 at 11:12 PM.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    That's my point, I don't think they would have "morals." They would basically just do whatever they felt they had to survive, but I wonder about a conscience. Is that something that is nurtured or natural? If a "feral" person was to kill another person, would they feel guilt about it? Do you think empathy is something that is taught or is it natural to feel sorry for a person who is suffering?
    empathy is both nature and nurture.

    Mirror neuron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Empathy and the brain

    For one thing, it turns out nonhuman animals--even rodents--show evidence of empathy.

    For another, empathy has a neurological basis.

    The same brain regions that process our first-hand experiences of pain are also activated when we observe other people in pain.
    There are biological structures strictly dedicated to things like empathy and morality (morality, at least according to Jonathan Haidt is just rules for social structure built into us through evolution (and tend to be emotionally, not logically based), which I am inclined to believe as it is the most complete explanation of what I see people do on a daily basis). However, parents (or some sort of role model/care taker) is needed to take those raw instincts and hone them into something before they atrophy, which was my original point (this time explained in more detail)

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