View Poll Results: Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

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  • Yes

    72 70.59%
  • No

    23 22.55%
  • Does not apply to me.

    7 6.86%
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Thread: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

  1. #1071
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Where most men are concerned, this isn't terribly far from the truth.
    Speak for yourself pervert
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    I just don't see this as the case. I think for instance, a 22 yr old guy is very much the same today as when I was a kid, in terms of having a clear goal in life and working towards it.
    I've provided financial coaching, career advice, and personal mentoring to, well, probably a couple of hundred 18-24 year old males over the last few years, and I struggle to come up with a definition by which I can describe "having a clear goal in life and working towards it" is a defining feature of the age group. We're extending adolescence until what - 26 now? 26 year olds used to have multiple children and a career. Now they are in graduate school working on that thesis eventually while still using their parents' health insurance? That is going to have effects. We sent everyone to college and then we started extending college -your typical four year degree now happens in five years if it happens at all. That is going to have effects. Marriage and parenthood is a major spur for men to grow up. It's happening later and later and less and less. That is going to have effects.

    I think they may be a little confused about what their role in a relationship with a female is or what is or is not considered adequately "male" but I don't think the womens movement robbed them of professional ambition. This implies that the only reason they ever had any in the first place was to get laid.
    that's not implausible at all. Women are attracted to alpha's, after all. Men therefore seek success not least because it increases their attractiveness to women, and their ability to turn that attraction into what they are seeking (sex). Give a guy sex without making him work for it, and he's like the butterfly you helped out of the cocoon. Happy now, and he'll never fly under his own power.

  3. #1073
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Since we are talking about women only, I thought I would try to incorporate male perspectives. When I lived in Europe, I remember talking to an acquaintance. He was a foreign exchange student in America and was talking about his experience. He said he was really shocked that American guys would go out to just try to have sex.

    I think I asked what the girls were acting like in the situations. I just remember one of our friends was making a joke out of it and started acting like he was trying to have sex with me. He called me a slut at some point, and I picked up a menu and smacked him over the head.

    Everybody started laughing really loud.

    He then said that that illustrated his opinion that American females are more willing to tolerate the behavior.

    I am not a male, so I can't say that I agree with him based on anything I have seen.

    I met him while I was living in northern Germany. Germany's concept of sexism is different from America's. It is hard to explain, but one huge thing that stands out is that on American TV if you see a man changing diapers or cleaning its a joke and its funny, because he is going to **** up. It is a classic comedy situation. On modern German TV, it is not the same.



    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Interestingly, some of the women friends of mine that are most suited to being happy in a marriage, tend to be from Europe and Africa. Of the American conservative gf's I have, probably about 3/4 of them seem to be satisfied in their long term relationships, and of the liberal ones, I'd guess closer to half. For whatever reason, it's doesn't seem that men are so scorned in other parts of the world- even those in which women have equal rights and are independent-minded.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    Speak for yourself pervert
    Again, only my experience directly supervising hundreds of these things, but from what I can see, he's generally correct. And the kinds of young men who join the Marine Corps are probably self-selecting to be least prevalent for this.

  5. #1075
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    But to answer the OP's question. The current environment is very hostile twords men. There is so much risk in marrying an American woman that its almost insane to get married. I tell every guy I can to stay very clear of marriage in the US. If a woman loves you, she will be content with living with you and will not force you to put your financial future at risk. I know to many men who were set for retirement just to go thru a nasty divorce and are working well into their retirement years because the wealth they lost in the divorce settlement decimated their retirement plans. To those guys who still believe in marriage, I will be there to tell you I told you so when it falls apart. More then 60% of marriages fail and more than 70% of those divorces are initiated by women.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  6. #1076
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Again, I get the suspicion that you are not bothering to read what you are responding to, vice simply projecting a cartoonish, 2-dimensional meme onto your opposition. Neither Thomas or myself are saying that men should be out there making sure that women are submissive to them; both of us have claimed that - generally - women [u]want[/i] men to lead. We aren't making a statement about men (outside generally of the commentary that men will often remain boys as long as they are able), we are making a statement about women.

    So. No. You don't bother to pay attention to what you are responding to. I have pretty much always gone with "generally", because most of these rules are, well, generalities. There are a few things I won't go with Generally because I believe in them as a moral code - saving sex for marriage, for example, the destructiveness of divorce for another. But when talking about which personality is dominant inside a relationship or which member in a household is the driving force in most decisions?

    That is incorrect - you can't have it all, as many prominent, well-credentialed women are starting to point out. Women, like men, have to make choices and to choose one thing is often to choose not another. Nor have I ever claimed that women are unable to support themselves. I will claim that women with children usually face difficulties supporting themselves, which is why so many of them replace a husband with the State, who fulfills all of the financial obligations, but never wants to have sex when they have a headache.

    You are attempting to project onto us arguments we aren't making, and disputing those without evidence. You are smarter than strawmen, Smoke.
    And your statements about women are incorrect, and based upon the idea that for women to be self-hating and prevented from achieving what they want to is somehow "natural."

    Women can have it all, but not if they have to do everything. That's the problem with America, and it's the reason your precious fertility rates are falling.

    Women try to not only work, but also do pretty much 100% of house and child care because most men still simply refuse to do any of it. And no, that is absolutely not sustainable.

    However, there are places where men are beginning to share that work. And guess what? The fertility rate is climbing.

    At the end of the day, most women are not like me -- I will grant you that much. They would have children, or have more children, if it weren't for the fact that they damn well know their partner will just dump everything on them, and they will either lose what might be an enjoyable career or simply wind up killing themselves trying to do everything virtually alone.

    So unless she just wants to stay home from the outset, why the hell would a woman settle down? Why would she trade a lifestyle where she's treating equally, for one where she knows she won't be?

    If you want to save your precious fertility rates, you're going to have to let go of this idea of a woman's "place." You could maintain that when women were very isolated and just didn't have any access to any other facets of life, but now that they are not, you are not going to be able to convince them, on a larger social level, to take the back seat. You're going to have to share.

  7. #1077
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I met him while I was living in northern Germany. Germany's concept of sexism is different from America's. It is hard to explain, but one huge thing that stands out is that on American TV if you see a man changing diapers or cleaning its a joke and its funny, because he is going to **** up. It is a classic comedy situation. On modern German TV, it is not the same.
    Well I'd point to that as part of my greater point that our common culture today denigrates the role of the father, if we used to overemphasize it. If we fell off of one side of the horse during the days of Father Knows Best, we've fallen off the other side in the days of Homer Simpson. My father changed plenty of diapers, I've changed diapers every day I've been home for years, and all the fathers I know change diapers. Hell, I literally change two diapers every day before breakfast, since I get up with the kids and get them fed.

  8. #1078
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    Are you referring to the "you can have it all" fantasy ?
    No; it's basically a hippy-fied version of the Stepford wife. It's actually kind of shocking how sexist the third wave really is.

  9. #1079
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    And your statements about women are incorrect, and based upon the idea that for women to be self-hating and prevented from achieving what they want to is somehow "natural."
    no, actually, nothing I have said is based upon that idea. Perhaps this confusion is why you think they are incorrect.

    Women can have it all, but not if they have to do everything. That's the problem with America, and it's the reason your precious fertility rates are falling.
    Fertility rates are falling for a number of reasons. Another major factor is the socialization of old-age costs. And they are important to those of us who give a crap about the future. Which, agreeably, parents are more likely to do than the "childfree".

    Women try to not only work, but also do pretty much 100% of house and child care because most men still simply refuse to do any of it.
    Incorrect. Women do more housework, but not nearly 100%, unless they are the ones who are home all day, in which case the man can only do housework when he is, well, home to do it. Here are the numbers according to PEW:



    You will see that even including the fact that many more women than men are full-time homemakers, men do a little over a third of the housework, and a third of the child-rearing. You are confusing 1965 with 2014. Apparently feminist rhetoric hasn't caught up to reality.

    However, there are places where men are beginning to share that work. And guess what? The fertility rate is climbing.
    Now that would be interesting to see - can you demonstrate it? Because - strictly anecdotally - what I see in my own life are women who are baby mama's to multiple babies whose father(s) think that their responsibilities begin and usually end with a check, if that. The highest fertility rates are among the demographics that are less likely to have a successful marriage. So that would have to be a pretty powerful narrow slice, there.

    At the end of the day, most women are not like me -- I will grant you that much. They would have children, or have more children, if it weren't for the fact that they damn well know their partner will just dump everything on them, and they will either lose what might be an enjoyable career or simply wind up killing themselves trying to do everything virtually alone.
    Then they should marry men instead of boys, or demand that boys become men in order to marry them. However, I have not seen the data which demonstrates that this belief is predominant among women who choose not to have children, or to sharply reduce the number of those that they do have.

    So unless she just wants to stay home from the outset, why the hell would a woman settle down? Why would she trade a lifestyle where she's treating equally, for one where she knows she won't be?
    Well, Smoke, gosh. What an interesting question. Why do they? And why do those who don't poll so heavily that they want to?

    Now, Thomas and I have said some stuff along the lines that - generally - this is the sort of thing that women want. When polled, apparently, women say they want it, too. And when you take a look at their actions, it seems as though they often act out those desires.

    But you and Chris are insisting that they don't. So, you tell us. If women do not want that, then why do they do it, and why do they claim to want to do so?

    If you want to save your precious fertility rates, you're going to have to let go of this idea of a woman's "place." You could maintain that when women were very isolated and just didn't have any access to any other facets of life, but now that they are not, you are not going to be able to convince them, on a larger social level, to take the back seat. You're going to have to share.
    You're going to have to start reading what you're responding to, or perhaps start playing with the idea that your opposition isn't a shallow stereotype.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I've provided financial coaching, career advice, and personal mentoring to, well, probably a couple of hundred 18-24 year old males over the last few years, and I struggle to come up with a definition by which I can describe "having a clear goal in life and working towards it" is a defining feature of the age group. We're extending adolescence until what - 26 now? 26 year olds used to have multiple children and a career. Now they are in graduate school working on that thesis eventually while still using their parents' health insurance? That is going to have effects. We sent everyone to college and then we started extending college -your typical four year degree now happens in five years if it happens at all. That is going to have effects. Marriage and parenthood is a major spur for men to grow up. It's happening later and later and less and less. That is going to have effects.
    There's a junior solider in my unit who acts almost exactly like that. The guy's 25, but he acts like he's 17.

    He comes from an affluent middle class family, he's slllllooooowwwly working his way through college for a degree in Criminal Justice even he thinks will be worthless (after flunking out once), he lives at home, is a borderline alcoholic (claims he can't sleep without a decent buzz going), will scream at his mother like a petulant child when she gives him fuss about mooching, and states that his goal for the foreseeable future is to complete his enlistment contract just so he can be free to smoke weed without answering to anyone.

    He's a nice enough guy (he sort of treats me like an older brother even though we're the same age), but seeing how he lives is like watching a damn train wreck.

    The sad part is that stories like his are not terribly uncommon either. I knew another guy almost exactly the same way in my old unit, only he was about 6 years older. After spending his entire twenties ****ing around, he finally got married to a woman who was willing to provide for him, and is now perfectly content to sit around playing video games and drinking beer while he plays house husband for her.

    Go figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    Speak for yourself pervert
    During my deployment overseas, I was honestly dreaming about women almost every other night.

    At the time, it seemed like everything in my life was on track too.

    I joined the military to help pay for college in 2007 and actually managed to get picked up for a job with good civilian employment prospects, I went to a school with a good academic reputation, I graduated with honors after only four years in 2010 with a degree in a discipline relevant to my military line of work, I deployed to the Middle East for a year 6 months after graduation and got some practical experience in the field and a decent chunk of money to make a down payment on starting an independent life for myself after I got back, and....

    ...

    ...

    ...

    I got home and was basically instantly swatted upside the head by the Obama economy.

    None of the jobs I actually wanted were willing to hire me, and I was over qualified for the lower tier jobs. The chunk of money I accumulated withered away with time, as did my standards for seeking employment.

    Now, here I sit; 25, single, living at home, working part time at some ridiculous retail job that barely pays me enough to cover my expenses every paycheck, and trying desperately to get picked up for an officer slot in the Army (basically the only upper tier job I'm qualified for right now) before the institution gets fully gutted.

    Yaaaaaayyy!!! 'Merica!

    I honestly suspect that my situation would be exactly the same right now if I had been like everyone else I see and never even tried at all.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 03-02-14 at 12:56 AM.

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