View Poll Results: Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

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Thread: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

  1. #1061
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    I wonder sometimes if men aren't a little confused about their place or roles nowadays. Maybe, the feminist movement provided a vehicle and some muscle to propel women forward and expand their choices but perhaps, because men have made no organized effort to restructure their role they are a little confused at what exactly is expected of them today.
    Well for much of the population, the answer is "not much", and so they meet expectations.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    .............

    I think this absolutely true, and I think feminism needs to take a strong part in pushing for that conversation to actually happen.
    As a movement, yes I agree. We can't really ask for fairness and then not practice it.

    Movements are always messy. We should strive to clean up after them as best we can.
    Also agree. It's unavoidable though as there is no way to control or predict all the outcomes of any movement. Imagine if people allowed themselves to be who they themselves are and ignored gender roles. Both men and women. That would be ideal...

    Off topic a little but I think there were a few unfavorable outcomes of the feminist movement and a very relevant oversight that gets to me is that I would have liked to have seen women push for a broader appreciation for the traditionally female role of wife and mother rather then than "we can do what men to do" approach. It implies that to be relevant and respected we need to what the men are doing. It kind of validates the notion that the traditional roles of men more valuable or require more competence.

    It is confusing, in a time where older women remember severe sexism and still exist in young mens' families, and yet the women they interact with are much more empowered.
    Yes but I would argue that keeping an eye on that past to help assure it does not creep back in does have its place. But we all have an obligation to keep up with the outcome of any movement we have been a part of and continue to fine tune it as it evolves.

    More than just a confusion about their role, it also creates a certain degree of guilt in some men.
    I've seen you mention this before but haven't really seen this as an impact myself. You mean like white guilt but gender guilt?
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Anything to deny reality. As kind of an aside, an overabundance of the types of meat most hunter-gathers would encounter is actually very bad for you, as Americans are learning with their over-consumption of it.
    That's only true if you're sitting around on your butt all day doing nothing else. Protein and fat rich meat is a Godsend for physically active hunter gatherers who would be living hand to mouth otherwise.

    As a matter of fact, due to their protein rich diet, hunter-gatherers often tended to enjoy health and grow to physical sizes that wouldn't be commonly seen again in post-Agricultural societies until the 20th Century.

    But anyway, I have provided you probably somewhere in the order of 50 sources over the months proving you wrong over and over, and I am not going to bother doing it again.
    Anything to deny reality!

    I have to prove to you women in America have self-image issues? Really? The society where labiaplasty and snake oil aging cream is big business? Again, I'm not bothering.
    And men have anabolic steroids. What's your point, and what does this have to do with the instinctual power dynamics at play in most heterosexual relationships?

    Sweden is an extremely deceptive example. Cohabitation without a license is now the norm, and the people getting formally married are the people like you. And they have extremely high divorce rates, yes. That is also true in America. Traditional families that push for things like virginal marriage, traditional arrangements, early childbearing, etc and with an enforced and prescribed unequal dynamic tend to fail in a day and age where women can look out their window and see people being, dare I say, free to live how they like.
    A) American social customs actually tend to be quite Liberal, all told, so this doesn't really mean much.

    B) Somewhere around 70% of cohabitating couples that have children together in Sweden eventually marry, so their divorce rate is still atrocious.

    C) Cohabitation without marriage is just as bad as divorce, if not worse. As a matter of fact, it only makes couples more likely to split up over extended time scales because there's nothing substantial holding them together in the first place.

    The simple fact of the matter is that the dynamics you suggest simply do not work. They destroy families, making things infinitely harder upon women and children in the process, and rely upon a wildly wasteful and inefficient welfare state to make up the difference.

    I'm sorry, but exchanging a husband for a government agency turned "sugar daddy" (at tax payer expense, no less) really isn't any great achievement.

    You can't even wrap your head around what I'm saying, here. There are dozens of different dynamics in any given relationship. You do not have to have one person controlling the majority of them. You also do not have to have them perfectly split down the middle. You can arrange them any way you like, and there might not be any apparently dominant partner, or there might be. You can have someone be extremely dominant in some areas and submissive in others.
    Again, I was never talking about anything deliberate in the first place.

    Men have an innate tendency to take a certain amount of control in a relationship, and women have an innate tendency to go after men who will display exactly those tendencies.

    It really isn't the kind of thing most couples really even have to think about. It just kind of happens of its own accord.

    I think the fact that women are no longer interested in a domineering and sexist man as a life partner
    I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever to suggest that women's tastes in men have fundamentally changed. The only thing that has changed is their attitude towards commitment (or lack thereof).

    The above statement is wishful thinking on your part.

    and when they pick one it tends to be a failure, is proof enough that they don't actually prefer it. There is nothing saying women are inherently permissive. Just because women in sexist countries tend to be such does not make it natural.
    If you say so, Smoke. Basically all evidence we have available says otherwise.

    You support a model in which women should be socially expected to have no survival resources of their own, or at least insufficient resources to be independent if they wish to be. That means you don't really support consent, because that is the kind of relationship where you should never be under any kind of pressure. It requires a great degree of trust to give up your ability to escape a relationship without being homeless for some period. And that is how you think it's "supposed" to be.
    Here you're simply making things up. Again, I never said anything about imposing my views on anyone.

    I also didn't say anything about women not having the resources to be independent if they didn't want them.

    Again, however; the simple fact of the matter is that screwing around with the fundamental structure of marriage generally doesn't seem to have positive impacts on the success of the union.

  4. #1064
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That would go into the other thread on the economics of sex. If males aren't required to turn into men... well, often, they won't.

    Project much? I haven't said "ought" in this thread. "This Is The Way Women Ought To Be" is a universalistic statement I wouldn't make or support. "Downfall of society"? No - both males and females have played a role in the breakup of the family and the degradation of our culture - and I tend to blame men (or, as we agree, often boys) more than women.

    If you want to have a conversation about "ought", I'd generally stick to "generally". What works for most doesn't work for all. Its just what works for most, because it most mirrors the mean of human experience. My relationship with my wife is different in that than (for example) my parents' relationship - the house I grew up in had a mother as the biggest personality. Which also isn't one-sided; I'm obviously not privy to the moments where it's just them two, but from what I understand, when it's just her and dad, the dynamics are different.
    Oh, I have no trouble at all meeting men. It's just that men tend not to be so hung up on making sure their woman is submissive to them.

    Backpeddle much? Everything you post about "the family," whoever it is you're blaming that day, has women as ideally occupying a submissive role as a housekeeper and mother primarily or exclusively. Your thread today is based on the concept of women being "too cheap" -- i.e. not waiting until he puts a ring on it and puts her up in a house to enjoy her sexuality.

    It is clear what you think womens' place is. And even if I allow you to backpeddle to "generally," you are still wrong. Women are not "generally" submissive and unable to support themselves. They are whatever they'd like to be.

  5. #1065
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Yes, there certainly has been a big shift in the way men are looked at, but its not new. It has been happening for the past 30+ years with no response from men. Men have been raised to simply suck it up and many still have the traditional view that they must protect women, even strangers. And because of this, it has been impossible for men to fight back against this societal shift. The ones that see it, can't do anything about it because there is easily a 100:1 ratio of men who will stand behind a woman even if she is wrong against any man that points it out to her. Instantly shutting down any dissent against the prevailing feminist mysandry. It all boils down to men putting women on a pedestal and women taking advantage of it.

    It was not until I traveled outside the country that I started to understand what was going on. I think most American men are so brainwashed they can't see whats happening. They are so distracted with sports and video games that they just don't see it. And many American men have never spent time outside of the US. When I lived overseas there was a stark difference between foreign women and American women. Foreign women actually LIKE men. Now you might think to yourself that if women really hated men we would instantly recognize that. But I think American men are so use to being hated and disrespected by women that we have become accustomed to it. I noticed this instantly when I moved overseas. The women smiled, said hello, did not mind having a conversation, and did not have this sense of viciousness and shallowness about them. They seemed more carefree and in relationships, a lot more loving.

    That is why I married a foreign woman. I was astonished, that for the first time in my life, my love and respect was reciprocated. It was not until I dated my wife that I really saw it. All the American women I ever dated simply took, took, took and never gave back in kind. When it comes to romance with American women, they simply do not reciprocate. Buy them flowers, treat them to dinner, tell them how nice they look, and most simply eat it up and dont appreciate what men do for them. They use their option to pretty much dump a guy any time he stops giving and moves on to the next schmuck that is willing to give without anything in return. Until men start demanding more from women in relationships and dateing, they will simply keep taking advantage of it.
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  6. #1066
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well for much of the population, the answer is "not much", and so they meet expectations.
    I just don't see this as the case. I think for instance, a 22 yr old guy is very much the same today as when I was a kid, in terms of having a clear goal in life and working towards it. I think they may be a little confused about what their role in a relationship with a female is or what is or is not considered adequately "male" but I don't think the womens movement robbed them of professional ambition. This implies that the only reason they ever had any in the first place was to get laid.
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  7. #1067
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    Off topic a little but I think there were a few unfavorable outcomes of the feminist movement and a very relevant oversight that gets to me is that I would have liked to have seen women push for a broader appreciation for the traditionally female role of wife and mother rather then than "we can do what men to do" approach. It implies that to be relevant and respected we need to what the men are doing. It kind of validates the notion that the traditional roles of men more valuable or require more competence.
    While I don't disagree with you in theory, I think we are already seeing that in the third wave, and it has taken a very destructive tone.

    In third wave feminism, the house mother has once again become the "best" form of femininity. It doesn't look like it at first because the language is so different, but it's the same thing. The third wave "earth mother" really has her entire identity consumed in "mother," and in other shows of worship of the female reproductive organs, going all the way up to some wacky stuff like vulva and period art.

    We just can't seem to hit a balance with this one.

    You may not be seeing this as much since you said are you are of an older generation than I am, but as a woman who is both young and childfree, let me tell you: third wave feminism wants nothing to do with me and thinks I am an inferior form of woman.

    I've seen you mention this before but haven't really seen this as an impact myself. You mean like white guilt but gender guilt?
    This is something I only see in men under 30 or so. Yeah, it's kind of like white guilt. It's like they confuse their physical ability to overpower most women to mean that any act they take -- especially sexual -- is an aggressive one.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    I just don't see this as the case. I think for instance, a 22 yr old guy is very much the same today as when I was a kid, in terms of having a clear goal in life and working towards it. I think they may be a little confused about what their role in a relationship with a female is or what is or is not considered adequately "male" but I don't think the womens movement robbed them of professional ambition. This implies that the only reason they ever had any in the first place was to get laid.
    Where most men are concerned, this isn't terribly far from the truth.

  9. #1069
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Oh, I have no trouble at all meeting men. It's just that men tend not to be so hung up on making sure their woman is submissive to them.
    Again, I get the suspicion that you are not bothering to read what you are responding to, vice simply projecting a cartoonish, 2-dimensional meme onto your opposition. Neither Thomas or myself are saying that men should be out there making sure that women are submissive to them; both of us have claimed that - generally - women [u]want[/i] men to lead. We aren't making a statement about men (outside generally of the commentary that men will often remain boys as long as they are able), we are making a statement about women.

    Backpeddle much? Everything you post about "the family," whoever it is you're blaming that day, has women as ideally occupying a submissive role as a housekeeper and mother primarily or exclusively. Your thread today is based on the concept of women being "too cheap" -- i.e. not waiting until he puts a ring on it and puts her up in a house to enjoy her sexuality.
    So. No. You don't bother to pay attention to what you are responding to. I have pretty much always gone with "generally", because most of these rules are, well, generalities. There are a few things I won't go with Generally because I believe in them as a moral code - saving sex for marriage, for example, the destructiveness of divorce for another. But when talking about which personality is dominant inside a relationship or which member in a household is the driving force in most decisions?

    It is clear what you think womens' place is. And even if I allow you to backpeddle to "generally," you are still wrong. Women are not "generally" submissive and unable to support themselves. They are whatever they'd like to be.
    That is incorrect - you can't have it all, as many prominent, well-credentialed women are starting to point out. Women, like men, have to make choices and to choose one thing is often to choose not another. Nor have I ever claimed that women are unable to support themselves. I will claim that women with children usually face difficulties supporting themselves, which is why so many of them replace a husband with the State, who fulfills all of the financial obligations, but never wants to have sex when they have a headache.


    You are attempting to project onto us arguments we aren't making, and disputing those without evidence. You are smarter than strawmen, Smoke.

  10. #1070
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    While I don't disagree with you in theory, I think we are already seeing that in the third wave, and it has taken a very destructive tone.

    In third wave feminism, the house mother has once again become the "best" form of femininity. It doesn't look like it at first because the language is so different, but it's the same thing. The third wave "earth mother" really has her entire identity consumed in "mother," and in other shows of worship of the female reproductive organs, going all the way up to some wacky stuff like vulva and period art.

    We just can't seem to hit a balance with this one.

    You may not be seeing this as much since you said are you are of an older generation than I am, but as a woman who is both young and childfree, let me tell you: third wave feminism wants nothing to do with me and thinks I am an inferior form of woman..
    Are you referring to the "you can have it all" fantasy ?
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