View Poll Results: Men: Would you marry an American Woman?

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  • Yes

    72 70.59%
  • No

    23 22.55%
  • Does not apply to me.

    7 6.86%
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Thread: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?[W:771]

  1. #1051
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Also, women were the primary "bread winners" in more natural states, as in, they were the ones providing the majority of the sustenance, so you're wrong there too.
    Men were handling the vast majority of hunting, which would have provided the highest quality food available at the time.

    However, that is ultimately besides the point, as "providing" doubles as a form of sexual display behavior, and always has. It serves the purpose of allowing women to determine the most sexually desirable males available.

    As such, even in primitive societies, heterosexual relationships still tend to exhibit males in dominant sexual roles just as they do almost everywhere else, as the most proactive, aggressive, and resourceful males are being routinely favored by women for the purposes of procreation. The difference might not be as pronounced as it is in other societies, but the trend is still present.

    Basically the only societies where women can be said to serve dominant sexual roles a majority of the time are matrilineal cultures where men have been all but expelled from the household entirely, meaning that women largely go it alone.

    So yes, it is absolutely an issue of women having little self-respect, in many cases. Womens' self-esteem is still extremely low in America, on the whole, and this is borne out by study after study after study.
    You are going to have to provide some evidence showing any kind of correlation whatsoever between female homemakers and low self-esteem.

    In other societies that are further along than we are, or in our own with women who are more self-possessed, I see an endless mix and match of dynamics. And it might surprise you to know that I myself am actually not an egalitarian. How that breaks down for me is not convenient to typify -- some aspects are superficially "traditional," and others are blatantly not so. But I don't prefer pure egalitarianism. I think this is common to personalities like mine; extremely proficient in some areas, but lopsided.
    And what we see almost universally from societies which try to "mix up" the traditional dynamic is that it simply does not work. Basically all it results in are marriages and long term relationships in general failing en masse, with wide spread disintegration of the family unit following close on its heels (Sweden, for instance, actually has the highest divorce rate on the planet).

    The vast majority of women simply do not respect subordinate men, and men simply do not tend to prefer domineering women. It's not how they're really wired.

    More often than not, you wind up with a situation reminiscent of the movie "American Beauty," with the wife losing respect for her husband and looking to score a more "respectable" mate higher up the ladder, and the husband growing more and more resentful and detached as his own status diminishes.

    What you promote is a dynamic which can never be "consensual" when applied to 50% of the population en masse, because it requires the woman to lack independent sustainability in the most basic survival sense, whereas the man is completely capable in this regard. An individual couple can make this decision themselves, based on trust and knowing their personal dynamic, but to apply it society-wide is an inevitable recipe for abuse, which we have seen from the unfortunate "glory days" you pine for.

    When applied to a society, it is not a partnership in any sense. It is women as servants.
    First off, when the heck did I suggest "imposing" anything on anyone?

    Secondly, what do you think I mean by "dominant" here?

    What I'm talking about is something biologically innate, not deliberate. More often than not, men simply tend to assume somewhat "dominant" roles in heterosexual relationships by default.

    Why? Because they naturally tend to be a lot more assertive and interpersonally aggressive than women, and most women actually tend to prefer their men that way. As such, they tend not to resist this development when it arises in a relationship.

    It seems to just be kind of the way the sexes are wired.

    There are exceptions to this rule of course, and this isn't to say that women don't tip the balance of power back in their favor in other, more subtle, ways. However, the fact that men generally do tend to be more assertive in relationships while women are more passive is more or less undeniable.

    I also never said that women couldn't work or seek out fulfillment outside of the home.

    Don't get me wrong. I think it is preferable that a woman try to stay closer to the home if she has children to care for, and leave most of the "bread winning" to her husband or significant other. However, there are plenty of ways to work around that these days.

    A lot of women can quite easily work from home (like Chris does, for instance), or simply work part time. As a matter of fact, numerous studies have shown that most mothers don't even want to work full time with young children at home anyway.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 03-01-14 at 11:20 PM.

  2. #1052
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Men were still handling the vast majority of hunting, which would have provided the highest quality food available at the time. However, that is ultimately besides the point, as "providing" doubles as a form of sexual display behavior, and always has. It serves the purpose of allowing women to determine the most dominant males available. As such, even in primitive societies, heterosexual relationships still tend to exhibit males in dominant sexual roles just as they do almost everywhere else. It might not be as pronounced as it is in other societies, but the trend is still present. Basically the only societies where women can be said to serve dominant sexual roles a majority of the time are matrilineal cultures where men have been all but expelled from the household entirely, meaning that women largely go it alone.

    You are going to have to provide some evidence showing any kind of correlation whatsoever between female homemakers and low self-esteem.

    And what we see almost universally from societies which try to "mix up" the traditional dynamic is that it simply does not work. Basically all it results in are marriages and long term relationships in general failing en masse, with wide spread disintegration of the family unit following close on its heels (Sweden/, for instance, actually has the highest divorce rate on the planet). The vast majority of women simply do not respect subordinate men, and men simply do not tend to prefer domineering women. It's not how they're really wired. More often than not, you wind up with a situation reminiscent of the movie "American Beauty," with the wife losing respect for her husband and looking to score a more "respectable" mate higher up the ladder, and the husband growing more and more resentful and detached as his own status diminishes.

    First off, when the heck did I suggest "imposing" anything on anyone? Secondly, what do you think I mean by "dominant" here? What I'm talking about is something biologically innate, not deliberate. More often than not, men simply tend to assume somewhat "dominant" roles in heterosexual relationships by default. Why? Because they naturally tend to be a lot more assertive and interpersonally aggressive than women, and most women actually tend to prefer their men that way. As such, they tend not to resist this development when it arises in a relationship. It seems to be just kind of be the way the sexes are wired. There are exceptions to this rule of course, and this isn't to say that women don't tip the balance of power back in their favor in other, more subtle, ways. However, the fact that men generally do tend to be more assertive in relationships while women are more passive is more or less undeniable. I also never said that women couldn't work or seek out fulfillment outside of the home. Don't get me wrong. I think it is preferable that a woman try to stay at home if she has children at home, and leave most of the "bread winning" to her husband or significant other. However, there are plenty of ways to work around that these days. A lot of women can quite easily work from home (like Chris does, for instance), or simply work part time. As a matter of fact, numerous studies have shown that most mothers don't even want to work full time with young children at home anyway.
    Anything to deny reality. As kind of an aside, an overabundance of the types of meat most hunter-gathers would encounter is actually very bad for you, as Americans are learning with their over-consumption of it. So, no, women were providing the bulk of necessary and healthy foods in the appropriate amounts -- which is the majority of the diet. And in a pinch, they could hunt as well.

    But anyway, I have provided you probably somewhere in the order of 50 sources over the months proving you wrong over and over, and I am not going to bother doing it again.

    I have to prove to you women in America have self-image issues? Really? The society where labiaplasty and snake oil aging cream is big business? Again, I'm not bothering.

    Sweden is an extremely deceptive example. Cohabitation without a license is now the norm, and the people getting formally married are the people like you. And they have extremely high divorce rates, yes. That is also true in America. Traditional families that push for things like virginal marriage, traditional arrangements, early childbearing, etc and with an enforced and prescribed unequal dynamic tend to fail in a day and age where women can look out their window and see people being, dare I say, free to live how they like.

    You can't even wrap your head around what I'm saying, here. There are dozens of different dynamics in any given relationship. You do not have to have one person controlling the majority of them. You also do not have to have them perfectly split down the middle. You can arrange them any way you like, and there might not be any apparently dominant partner, or there might be. You can have someone be extremely dominant in some areas and submissive in others.

    I think the fact that women are no longer interested in a domineering and sexist man as a life partner, and when they pick one it tends to be a failure, is proof enough that they don't actually prefer it. There is nothing saying women are inherently permissive. Just because women in sexist countries tend to be such does not make it natural.

    You support a model in which women should be socially expected to have no survival resources of their own, or at least insufficient resources to be independent if they wish to be. That means you don't really support consent, because that is the kind of relationship where you should never be under any kind of pressure. It requires a great degree of trust to give up your ability to escape a relationship without being homeless for some period. And that is how you think it's "supposed" to be.

  3. #1053
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    OK. It's late and I'm ready for bed. So maybe this is completely off track here but is it possible that men no longer feel like competing for women? Or today feel like they have to work harder to get one? They feel like they are entitled to a woman? And one that will accept them as 'the head of the house?' Hmmmmmm.

    (I am not presuming that it's a competitive thing....it's just a theory, lol)

    No flames please. Not meaning offense.
    I apologize for the late respond, but I just noticed the thread. I'm not married and not planning on it.... I would say, personally, that most of the women i've met are not worth respect. Then again I dont respect most of the men I've met either. Honestly, the women of today are much easier to get.... They have seem to have very little self-worth.

    The last date I went out on I held the door open for her and she complained about it. I was always taught that holding a door open for a woman was a sign of respect, not dis-respect.

  4. #1054
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    The thing is, the way most guys who think this carry it out, I don't believe that crap, because that's not what I actually see them doing. What I see them doing -- and I will borrow ChrisL's very apt metaphor -- is basically looking for a mommy to pick up their socks, only this one won't tell them what to do, or even make much fuss about what she would like to do.
    Well then you aren't hanging out with men. You are hanging out with boys.

    And even in rare cases where the claims about "the neck" aren't simply disingenuous, it is still insulting to try to tell all women how they should be and how their relationships should be. If that works for you, fine. But you don't get to tell me or any other woman what works for us.
    You are a writer. Do you really need someone to explain the meaning of the word "generally" to you?

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    I wonder sometimes if men aren't a little confused about their place or roles nowadays. Maybe, the feminist movement provided a vehicle and some muscle to propel women forward and expand their choices but perhaps, because men have made no organized effort to restructure their role they are a little confused at what exactly is expected of them today.
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well then you aren't hanging out with men. You are hanging out with boys.

    You are a writer. Do you really need someone to explain the meaning of the word "generally" to you?
    I don't hang out with those kind of guys. I merely run into them from time to time, because it can't be helped. So, it appears a lot of them must be boys.

    No, but I certainly do need someone to explain me why you and he then advocate it as the way women ought to be, and blame them for the supposed downfall of society when they aren't.

  7. #1057
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Well geez, for someone who is so young and still practically a newlywed, you sure seem to an AWFUL lot about women and what they want. You must have been QUITE the stud when you were available on the dating scene since you know us women SO well. Lol! What makes you think your personal experience count anywhere except in your own mind?
    Is this the part where I point out the emotional content of your response vice the reason in it, and you get all bent out of shape at me accusing you of reacting emotionally, and then I point out that you are demonstrating part of my point?

    however, I'll agree, I haven't been married that long - about 6 years now in all. Fortunately, they do polling on this sort of thing, and so when I point out that - generally - women prefer to be led by a man vice (for example) a woman boss, I am - generally - correct. The stats are probably out there for the other items as well - would you like to place, say, a year's platinum membership on the line that men ask women to marry them more than women ask men? We could wager a sig line on whether or not men initiate sex more than women do? whattya say?

    Also, how many times, when you wife says "you pick" and you pick Chinese, does she say, "well, I'm not really in the mood for Chinese tonight."? Hmmmmm?
    Usually it's Outback. Or Chik-fil-A.

    My, my you should write a book Mr. I Know What Women Want.
    responding with sarcasm doesn't actually make you look well-thought-out, Chris. It just makes you look unable to respond with anything else.

  8. #1058
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    I wonder sometimes if men aren't a little confused about their place or roles nowadays. Maybe, the feminist movement provided a vehicle and some muscle to propel women forward and expand their choices but perhaps, because men have made no organized effort to restructure their role they are a little confused at what exactly is expected of them today.
    I think this absolutely true, and I think feminism needs to take a strong part in pushing for that conversation to actually happen. Movements are always messy. We should strive to clean up after them as best we can.

    It is confusing, in a time where older women remember severe sexism and still exist in young mens' families, and yet the women they interact with are much more empowered. More than just a confusion about their role, it also creates a certain degree of guilt in some men.

  9. #1059
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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Perhaps it's the norm because it's the norm.
    RtE: And not because it SHOULD be the norm, in any biological or otherwise sense.
    Education.

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    Re: Men: Would You Marry an American Woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    I don't hang out with those kind of guys. I merely run into them from time to time, because it can't be helped. So, it appears a lot of them must be boys.
    That would go into the other thread on the economics of sex. If males aren't required to turn into men... well, often, they won't.

    No, but I certainly do need someone to explain me why you and he then advocate it as the way women ought to be, and blame them for the supposed downfall of society when they aren't.
    Project much? I haven't said "ought" in this thread. "This Is The Way Women Ought To Be" is a universalistic statement I wouldn't make or support. "Downfall of society"? No - both males and females have played a role in the breakup of the family and the degradation of our culture - and I tend to blame men (or, as we agree, often boys) more than women.

    If you want to have a conversation about "ought", I'd generally stick to "generally". What works for most doesn't work for all. Its just what works for most, because it most mirrors the mean of human experience. My relationship with my wife is different in that than (for example) my parents' relationship - the house I grew up in had a mother as the biggest personality. Which also isn't one-sided; I'm obviously not privy to the moments where it's just them two, but from what I understand, when it's just her and dad, the dynamics are different.

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