WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1943

I was just reading the poll discussion related to three German concentration camp guards recently having been arrested and charged (for some crime) for their actions during WWII.

That got me thinking:

I've read numerous accounts written by WWII Marines and Soldiers wherein they discuss having personally witnessed or participated in the murder of Japanese enemy prisoners of war (EPWs). I've read similar, though far fewer, accounts of WWII Soldiers having murdered or witnessed the murder German and Italian EPWs.

Bear in mind that when I say "witnessed" I'm not talking about some guy watching a murder taking place 1000 meters away through a pair of binoculars; I'm talking about guys discussing murders committed right next to them by people they knew well - their buddies and shipmates.

Likewise, I've read accounts of WWII Marines and Soldiers torturing Japanese EPWs and/or desecrating the remains of dead Japanese Soldiers.

Understand that we're talking about guys unashamedly, and often proudly, admitting to murder in memoirs, diaries, and oral histories.

Further understand that there is absolutely NO QUESTION that according to the letter of the law we're talking about murder here.

This isn't a "gray area" created by the fact that the Japanese weren't signatories to the Geneva Conventions.

By all relevant and applicable international conventions, federal law, and military regulations it was illegal for Americans to kill EPWs during the entire span of the Second World War.

In many cases these murders were committed by the fighting man absent any direction from a higher authority.

In almost all cases that made little difference since, at least early in the war (through 1943 at least), most field grade commanders of combat troops encouraged such murders (for a number of reasons).

So...

Should these men, American WWII veterans, be tried for murder or as accessories to murder, and if found guilty punished accordingly?

Obviously the poll responses are "Yes" and "No" but please feel free to argue your position in any manner and to any extent that you wish.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

How do you know field grade officers condoned murder? I will say I beleive there are times when it might become necessary to kill an unarmed prisoner. But very few.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

mak2 said:

How do you know field grade officers condoned murder?

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I've read quite a bit on the topic.

I initially planned to become a historian and my intention was to specialize in the WWI/Interwar/WWII period of European with a special emphasis on the Postwar occupation of Germany.

That was an interest that came out of my having served in the Army in Germany for a couple of years.

Anyhow, that plan kind of fell to the wayside a number of years ago but I did a LOT of reading as a result of course work and independent study as an undergrad.

I can't cite exact quotes and can't give references to specific books or archival holdings from where I'm sitting, but suffice it to say, or simply accept for the sake of discussion/argument that I'm not just making **** up.

Alternatively, some quick Google Fu should satisfy you that it happened.

Also, "condoned" probably isn't even strong enough a word.

Many field grade commanders actively encouraged or even ordered the murder of Japanese EPWs.

There was an entire movement in the War Department to get them to stop doing this because the scarcity of Japanese EPWs was putting a crimp on the intelligence-gathering capabilities of war planners.

You can probably find reference to that too without going through a whole bunch of trouble.

I will say I beleive there are times when it might become necessary to kill an unarmed prisoner. But very few.

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I agree.

Exigent circumstances are exigent.

But this went well beyond being a matter of absolutely necessity to being a matter of course.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

I guess the winners get to say what history is real, wether true or not. I have often thought about if the US had lost the war we would now all believe in rampant American atrocities in WWII.

soot said:

I've read quite a bit on the topic.

I initially planned to become a historian and my intention was to specialize in the WWI/Interwar/WWII period of European with a special emphasis on the Postwar occupation of Germany.

That was an interest that came out of my having served in the Army in Germany for a couple of years.

Anyhow, that plan kind of fell to the wayside a number of years ago but I did a LOT of reading as a result of course work and independent study as an undergrad.

I can't cite exact quotes and can't give references to specific books or archival holdings from where I'm sitting, but suffice it to say, or simply accept for the sake of discussion/argument that I'm not just making **** up.

Alternatively, some quick Google Fu should satisfy you that it happened.

Also, "condoned" probably isn't even strong enough a word.

Many field grade commanders actively encouraged or even ordered the murder of Japanese EPWs.

There was an entire movement in the War Department to get them to stop doing this because the scarcity of Japanese EPWs was putting a crimp on the intelligence-gathering capabilities of war planners.

You can probably find reference to that too without going through a whole bunch of trouble.



I agree.

Exigent circumstances are exigent.

But this went well beyond being a matter of absolutely necessity to being a matter of course.

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Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

The events in the Concentration Camps, while having primarily taken place during the war, are rightfully dealt with in a different manner than actual battlefield events which tend to be focused on desperate men trying to stay alive and win the war.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

Murder had no statute of limits.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

I just dont think anyone under the rank or equivalent of Colonel or higher had much to say about what they were doing. I think German rank structure it might have been more like General.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

Ray410 said:

The events in the Concentration Camps, while having primarily taken place during the war, are rightfully dealt with in a different manner than actual battlefield events which tend to be focused on desperate men trying to stay alive and win the war.

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From what I've read, and again feel free to investigate this yourselves if you believe the information to be suspect, the murders of Japanese EPWs ran the gamut from VERY desperate men doing what was VERY necessary to stay alive (exigent circumstances) and simple raw brutality/retribution based on, sometimes, little more than hate/nationalism/bigotry and far removed from any urgent need. There are numerous reports of Japanese being rounded up in rear areas and machine gunned simply because they were Japanese.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

Maybe I just dont want to believe that about our guys...

soot said:

From what I've read, and again feel free to investigate this yourselves if you believe the information to be suspect, the murders of Japanese EPWs ran the gamut from VERY desperate men doing what was VERY necessary to stay alive (exigent circumstances) and simple raw brutality/retribution based on, sometimes, little more than hate/nationalism/bigotry and far removed from any urgent need. There are numerous reports of Japanese being rounded up in rear areas and machine gunned simply because they were Japanese.

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Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

Anyone who has read With the Old Breed ought to know that that was how the Pacific Campaign was. No rules, no holds barred; just a murder-fest until one side ran out of people. That's what makes current heart-palpitations about snipers peeing on dead Taliban so hilariously ironic - our own military command (apparently) doesn't even know their own battle history (though perhaps that's just what happens when you make a navy pilot Commandant of the Marine Corps).

Everyone who wants to put them on trial is free to build a time machine, travel backwards, and put themselves in that campaign.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

soot said:

From what I've read, and again feel free to investigate this yourselves if you believe the information to be suspect, the murders of Japanese EPWs ran the gamut from VERY desperate men doing what was VERY necessary to stay alive (exigent circumstances) and simple raw brutality/retribution based on, sometimes, little more than hate/nationalism/bigotry and far removed from any urgent need. There are numerous reports of Japanese being rounded up in rear areas and machine gunned simply because they were Japanese.

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Maybe. So what? That's war. If your unit is moving fast, has a critical mission and the lives of many others depend on your success, you don't have time to screw around with prisoners.

If you read the history of Japanese aggression and brutality in the Far East throughout the Thirties, you will understand why many other Far Eastern countries hate the Japanese to this day.

Americans, true to our nature, have been much more forgiving.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

This isn't about platitudes. It is about a specific incident and if the person murdered a Japanese POW without military necessity then it is murder. Simple enough.

Whether that is what happened is a trial fact question, not a matter of platitudes.

Germans who participated in atrocities against Americans or civilians - the same for Japanese - had no statute of limitations.

For the most part, it is FALSE to claim a German soldier would be court martialed for refusing to participate in atrocities. That was well told by German soldiers at the Nurenberg trials.

German, until the very end, has a very structured military. A court martial of serious consequence required a trial. It was never Germany's official policy to kill Jews, nor other civilians, nor POWs. If a German soldier refused to kill people in one of the death camps - and many did refuse - they were simply assigned to a different unit, generally not at the camp. They could not be court martialed because it was German policy this wasn't happening.

Nor could any American ever have been court martialed for refusing to kill a Japanese POW. "I was following orders" wouldn't work for that reason.

What could be considered is the fact that it was known to American soldiers that the Japanese brutally tortured and slaughtered both POWs and civilians, for which there is ample footage of Americans gunning down Japanese soldiers walking across a field with their hand up surrendering. The attitude between Germans and Americans - both sides in general treating each other's prisoners quite well (there were some exceptions), this was not how it was between the Japanese and Americans. Rather, it was total and murderous hatred - and on our soldier's side for good reasons.

Thus, I would take that into consideration, particularly if a battlefield circumstance. The on-the-ground brutality of battle between the Japanese and Americans - and both military and civilian casualties - was extremely high. The rules of war basically out the window, and maybe by necessity.

HOWEVER, if this happened in a POW camp or later behind the lines, I would be less understanding and would want to try to figure the motive. That would greatly factor into what conclusions and determinations I would make.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

If they want to be court martialed under the current UCMJ, so be it. Kinda stupid personally, but whatever.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

Ray410 said:

Maybe. So what? That's war. If your unit is moving fast, has a critical mission and the lives of many others depend on your success, you don't have time to screw around with prisoners.

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If that is the case then you shouldn't sign treaties, pass federal laws, and enact military regulations that say it's illegal to kill EPWs and that doing so is prosecutable as murder.

Right?

If you read the history of Japanese aggression and brutality in the Far East throughout the Thirties, you will understand why many other Far Eastern countries hate the Japanese to this day.

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There's no question that Japanese aggression and brutality through the Thirties, through the Forties as far as it goes, is, perhaps not necessarily unparalleled, but definitely up there in terms of some of the worst aggressive and brutal regimes in world history.

But to say that, "because they did it, we can do it", or, "because they're so bad, our less brutal though still wholly inhuman behavior is acceptable in contrast", is a cop out.

It's kinda like saying, "If you read this history of Islamic theocracy, tribal monarchies, and sectarianism in the Middle East over the past 70 years you'll see what brutal, backward, savages those people can be, so it's okay for American combat forces to rape women, murder children, torture captives, and etc..."

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

soot said:

There's no question that Japanese aggression and brutality through the Thirties, through the Forties as far as it goes, is, perhaps not necessarily unparalleled, but definitely up there in terms of some of the worst aggressive and brutal regimes in world history.

But to say that, "because they did it, we can do it", or, "because they're so bad, our less brutal though still wholly inhuman behavior is acceptable in contrast", is a cop out.

It's kinda like saying, "If you read this history of Islamic theocracy, tribal monarchies, and sectarianism in the Middle East over the past 70 years you'll see what brutal, backward, savages those people can be, so it's okay for American combat forces to rape women, murder children, torture captives, and etc..."

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If you'll read the few words in my post again, you'll see that I didn't say any of those things or use any of the reasoning that you have ascribed to me. How you deduced that childlike reasoning and excuse making from my post is beyond me.

It is good you've observed however, that human behavior in most wars throughout history turns out the same.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

And what do you do with a POW? Keep them with you? Now you gotta assign one of your own to watch them while the rest of you sleep. Just let them go? Great strategy.

Unarmed =\= benign

The only folks qualified to judge these cases are a jury of the defendants PEERS. Let THEM decide the morality of necessary evils.

War is hell. Trying to apply the rule of law to a completely lawless environment is just going to cause a lot of pointless collateral damage beyond that already being done.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

The theory of law transcends the political limitations on the use of legal proceedings. In this instance, the legal theory is clear, there is no statute of limitations on murder, if the prisoner was a prisoner, he is not subject to summary execution. This is murder and culpability for the murder should attach accordingly.

Is it going to happen, no, of course not.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

KevinKohler said:

Trying to apply the rule of law to a completely lawless environment is just going to cause a lot of pointless collateral damage beyond that already being done.

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Well, its not lawless though, its the laws of war. One cannot summarily kill POWs.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

Canadians were tried for murder in Somalia. Not sure why murder shouldnt be tried as murder.
Somalia Affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

newpublius said:

Well, its not lawless though, its the laws of war. One cannot summarily kill POWs.

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When there is one person trying to kill another person, there is no law.

We're trying to apply laws to what is a wholesale lawless act.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

KevinKohler said:

When there is one person trying to kill another person, there is no law.

We're trying to apply laws to what is a wholesale lawless act.

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I'm sorry, that's unsubstantiated. Combat itself is not a law free zone, the laws of war do apply. Nevertheless, and this is important, we're also discussing post-combat and the duties imposed when capturing and detaining POWs. They can surely be tried and convicted for war crimes and subsequent to that punished accordingly, but there is no such thing as 'no quarter' and summary executions of POWs are not sanctioned by law and are in fact unlawful.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

newpublius said:

I'm sorry, that's unsubstantiated. Combat itself is not a law free zone, the laws of war do apply. Nevertheless, and this is important, we're also discussing post-combat and the duties imposed when capturing and detaining POWs. They can surely be tried and convicted for war crimes and subsequent to that punished accordingly, but there is no such thing as 'no quarter' and summary executions of POWs are not sanctioned by law and are in fact unlawful.

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War often = win or die.

No law can exist in such a circumstance. There is no rule we won't break to keep from getting killed, to keep from losing.

If China invaded the US tonight, and us on the ropes, and our option was, lose and be Chinese, or engage in war crimes, illegal acts, like bio and chem warfare...guess which path we would take?


I repeat...no law can exist or apply to a lawless act. We're already engaged in depriving people of that which is considered most precious...their right to live.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

KevinKohler said:

War often = win or die.

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Yes, that's great and when both sides are armed and continue to fight each other in hostilities, the basic law of war is that both sides can engage the other based on the principles of distinction and proportionality.

KevinKohler said:

No law can exist in such a circumstance.

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Well, it does there and this is why you can't just indiscriminately kill (kill anybody including civilians without any regard to whether they are active belligerents or not) or disproportionately target an area (ie. nuke something).

Point is the 'win or die' scenario you posit is over. We won, the guy is now captured. Sorry, you're not allowed to summarily execute POWs. Maybe its your opinion that you think they should or should be able to. Whatever, I don't know what to tell you, in point of fact I am accurate describing the law. I'm sorry that you find it inconvenient.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

soot said:

I was just reading the poll discussion related to three German concentration camp guards recently having been arrested and charged (for some crime) for their actions during WWII.

That got me thinking:

I've read numerous accounts written by WWII Marines and Soldiers wherein they discuss having personally witnessed or participated in the murder of Japanese enemy prisoners of war (EPWs). I've read similar, though far fewer, accounts of WWII Soldiers having murdered or witnessed the murder German and Italian EPWs.

Bear in mind that when I say "witnessed" I'm not talking about some guy watching a murder taking place 1000 meters away through a pair of binoculars; I'm talking about guys discussing murders committed right next to them by people they knew well - their buddies and shipmates.

Likewise, I've read accounts of WWII Marines and Soldiers torturing Japanese EPWs and/or desecrating the remains of dead Japanese Soldiers.

Understand that we're talking about guys unashamedly, and often proudly, admitting to murder in memoirs, diaries, and oral histories.

Further understand that there is absolutely NO QUESTION that according to the letter of the law we're talking about murder here.

This isn't a "gray area" created by the fact that the Japanese weren't signatories to the Geneva Conventions.

By all relevant and applicable international conventions, federal law, and military regulations it was illegal for Americans to kill EPWs during the entire span of the Second World War.

In many cases these murders were committed by the fighting man absent any direction from a higher authority.

In almost all cases that made little difference since, at least early in the war (through 1943 at least), most field grade commanders of combat troops encouraged such murders (for a number of reasons).

So...

Should these men, American WWII veterans, be tried for murder or as accessories to murder, and if found guilty punished accordingly?

Obviously the poll responses are "Yes" and "No" but please feel free to argue your position in any manner and to any extent that you wish.

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Of course this happened. Crimes of passion if you will. Japanese did the same to us. Equating that to concentration camps in which millions of jews weresystematically murdered is dishonest. While in both cases people were murdered, one was in the heat of combat and stress, the other was a matter of policy.

The American soldier in WW2 was much more disciplined in that regard when compared with soldiers of other countries. However, to say that race wasn't a factor in there being more atrocities against the Japanese would also be wrong. Propaganda against the Nazis was dehumanizing in an ideological boogieman kind of way, whereas propaganda against the Japanese included blatantly racial tones.

Should an American soldier of WW2 face criminal charges for allegedly murdering a Japanese soldier in the heat of combat? Perhaps to a degree, but the heat of combat should be taken into account and not equated to Nazi death camps.

Re: WWII Marine charged with murder for executing Japanese Enemy Prisoner of War in 1

What the hell is the matter with people ??
Such a close vote , thus far.....
NOT NO ..... BUT HELL NO !!!!!!!!!
War itself is a crime upon the people.....so its war that should be tried , not the combatants.