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Should German WWII vets be arrested?[W:260]

Should German WWII vets still be arrested?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 22.1%
  • No

    Votes: 29 42.6%
  • It depends

    Votes: 24 35.3%

  • Total voters
    68

Voltaire X

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Germany is STILL arresting WW2 vets because they were stationed at concentration camps.

BBC News - Germany arrests three suspected Auschwitz guards

Three men aged 88, 92 and 94 have been detained by German authorities on suspicion of being guards at the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz.

The homes of a number of men were raided in three German states, months after prosecutors investigating Nazi-era war crimes announced they were recommending charges against 30 people.



Is this fair? The youngest of the three would have been probably born in 1926, making him no older than 19 when the war ended. Additionally, it's not like these guys volunteered for the war, or even to be guards at Auschwitz. They were forced into it; almost every German male of military age was forced into fighting for the Third Reich. I don't think it's right for us to do this. It's ridiculous for a bunch of people lucky enough to be born in the post-war era to go back and persecute these people for things that happened 70 years ago, especially since these people couldn't have possibly hoped to stop anything. What would have happened if they refused to be guards at Auschwitz? They would have probably just been executed on the spot for refusing to obey orders.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Germany is STILL arresting WW2 vets because they were stationed at concentration camps.

BBC News - Germany arrests three suspected Auschwitz guards

Three men aged 88, 92 and 94 have been detained by German authorities on suspicion of being guards at the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz.

The homes of a number of men were raided in three German states, months after prosecutors investigating Nazi-era war crimes announced they were recommending charges against 30 people.



Is this fair? The youngest of the three would have been probably born in 1926, making him no older than 19 when the war ended. Additionally, it's not like these guys volunteered for the war, or even to be guards at Auschwitz. They were forced into it; almost every German male of military age was forced into fighting for the Third Reich. I don't think it's right for us to do this. It's ridiculous for a bunch of people lucky enough to be born in the post-war era to go back and persecute these people for things that happened 70 years ago, especially since these people couldn't have possibly hoped to stop anything. What would have happened if they refused to be guards at Auschwitz? They would have probably just been executed on the spot for refusing to obey orders.

I'm aware that most if not all concentration camp guards volunteered and were members of the SchutzStaffel, not ordinary German conscripts.
That being said, they should have been brought to justice earlier. What use is putting those men who probably doesn't even remember their time as soldiers in prison?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

If they committed a crime, bring them to justice.

I don't care if they are 18 or 88. Whether they are healthy or dying of cancer.

Justice is blind...as it should be.


Why not ask any surviving victims if they want these people brought to trial or not? If they say 'no'...I am fine with that.

But if they say 'yes'...prosecute them to the absolute full extent of the law.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

How can they be prosecuted if they were following a direct order from their commanding officer? Honestly, I understand that this was a horrible circumstance, but if these guys are brought to justice, in my opinion, anyway, it'd make more soldiers hesitant about signing up, if they can be prosecuted for following an order they were forced to do.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

How can they be prosecuted if they were following a direct order from their commanding officer? Honestly, I understand that this was a horrible circumstance, but if these guys are brought to justice, in my opinion, anyway, it'd make more soldiers hesitant about signing up, if they can be prosecuted for following an order they were forced to do.

The situation is different. In the present soldiers have ways to report illegal orders even though there may be retribution. Back then there was only death.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Not to disrespect those that died, but I think we should let bygones be bygones
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

184769_v4.jpg


Growing up in a society like that can do a lot to the mind of a young person, I think the time has passed to prosecute these guys not only because their advanced age but because their defense would obviously rest on saying if they failed to obey orders they'd be killed themselves and that growing up in that society they didn't have much hope to be normal folks. A prosecution would have an extremely hard time proving that was not the case, and these guys would likely die before the issue was settled.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

I've read that Mossad still keeps open files on fugitive Nazis. Dunno if it's true or not.

I'm conflicted here. I do know that if Hitler himself had escaped and was found hiding out in the Amazon or whatever, his age wouldn't matter to the majority. He'd be extradited and lynched in Tel Aviv. Probably on live TV.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Germany is STILL arresting WW2 vets because they were stationed at concentration camps.

BBC News - Germany arrests three suspected Auschwitz guards

Three men aged 88, 92 and 94 have been detained by German authorities on suspicion of being guards at the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz.

The homes of a number of men were raided in three German states, months after prosecutors investigating Nazi-era war crimes announced they were recommending charges against 30 people.



Is this fair? The youngest of the three would have been probably born in 1926, making him no older than 19 when the war ended. Additionally, it's not like these guys volunteered for the war, or even to be guards at Auschwitz. They were forced into it; almost every German male of military age was forced into fighting for the Third Reich. I don't think it's right for us to do this. It's ridiculous for a bunch of people lucky enough to be born in the post-war era to go back and persecute these people for things that happened 70 years ago, especially since these people couldn't have possibly hoped to stop anything. What would have happened if they refused to be guards at Auschwitz? They would have probably just been executed on the spot for refusing to obey orders.

If a WWII German vet participated in atrocities it doesn't matter how old they were at the time.

If they were just an average soldier fighting in the field, then no. They were serving their country honorably.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

If a WWII German vet participated in atrocities it doesn't matter how old they were at the time.

If they were just an average soldier fighting in the field, then no. They were serving their country honorably.

So who gets to decide who was an average soldier and who participated in atrocities? According to modern Germany, if you were stationed at a concentration camp then you are responsible for the atrocities. I don't believe all of the camp guards were volunteers, either, but there is little evidence I can find about this. I did find that a lot more than just the SS were stationed at the camps, though.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

I've read that Mossad still keeps open files on fugitive Nazis. Dunno if it's true or not.

I'm conflicted here. I do know that if Hitler himself had escaped and was found hiding out in the Amazon or whatever, his age wouldn't matter to the majority. He'd be extradited and lynched in Tel Aviv. Probably on live TV.

yeah, I was thinking that but your detractors would say that finding Hitler isn't the same as a regular german soldier who was "just following orders". If someone "orders" you to systematically kill women, children, the crippled and elderly, and you FOLLOW the order, there is not a ring in hell dark enough for you to spend eternity. If they find absolute proof these guys were involved they should be lined up on a wall and shot and ANY remaining holocaust survivors should be permitted to do the shooting.....period
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

If a WWII German vet participated in atrocities it doesn't matter how old they were at the time.

If they were just an average soldier fighting in the field, then no. They were serving their country honorably.

The Waffen SS also performed admirably at the field but they were nonetheless criminals. Same for some soldiers of the Wehrmacht. While it's true that most of the SS carried out the atrocities, the Wehrmacht (though like any other army at that time or in the past and future for that matter) also carried out war crimes. Rape, pillage, massacres, the list is long.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

yeah, I was thinking that but your detractors would say that finding Hitler isn't the same as a regular german soldier who was "just following orders". If someone "orders" you to systematically kill women, children, the crippled and elderly, and you FOLLOW the order, there is not a ring in hell dark enough for you to spend eternity. If they find absolute proof these guys were involved they should be lined up on a wall and shot and ANY remaining holocaust survivors should be permitted to do the shooting.....period
Who knows what these guys got up to? It's almost impossible to believe that they'd have feared punishment for any atrocities they may have committed. Especially not when German soldiers themselves were immune from official sanction, whatever their excesses.

While I'm less than comfortable with the idea of punishing nonagenarians, I have to say I wouldn't lose any sleep over it for these three. Whatever.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

yeah, I was thinking that but your detractors would say that finding Hitler isn't the same as a regular german soldier who was "just following orders". If someone "orders" you to systematically kill women, children, the crippled and elderly, and you FOLLOW the order, there is not a ring in hell dark enough for you to spend eternity. If they find absolute proof these guys were involved they should be lined up on a wall and shot and ANY remaining holocaust survivors should be permitted to do the shooting.....period

If you and your family is threatened to be shot if you don't follow the order then would you refuse? I would have an incredibly hard time deciding. I would ask, no, beg for them to spare my family and refuse to shoot. I would then probably commit suicide or get killed.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

It was 70 years ago. Let it go. These men are all old and on death's door anyway. War crimes were committed by both sides, yet I don't see much of an outcry to prosecute those from the other side.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

The situation is different. In the present soldiers have ways to report illegal orders even though there may be retribution. Back then there was only death.

They could have deserted
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

The Waffen SS also performed admirably at the field but they were nonetheless criminals. Same for some soldiers of the Wehrmacht. While it's true that most of the SS carried out the atrocities, the Wehrmacht (though like any other army at that time or in the past and future for that matter) also carried out war crimes. Rape, pillage, massacres, the list is long.

That's why I didn't limit my definition of atrocity.

War is by it's very definition an environment that puts young men in a position that emotions can lead to acts that an average person cannot imagine. All armies from all countries are susceptible to individual troops or small groups of troops committing atrocities out of revenge or some other emotion brought to the surface by the heat of the battlefield.

I've seen it first hand.

The average soldier, is not a criminal. No matter what country they are from, or what war they were in.

The German SS is condemned as a whole. I don't doubt that the majority are rightfully condemned for the actions of the group, since most knew what the SS was when they joined. But, there's a reasonable chance that certain members of the SS didn't participate in atrocities (I AM NOT DEFENDING THEM THOUGH).

My concern is that once we condemn an entire army or country, for the actions of a few, where does it stop??? What are our options, mass execution or jailing the entire military?

I know that's not what you meant, but...
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

They could have deserted

To what end? Go hide and have a high chance of being caught? Remember Germany was totalitarian which made surveillance and capture much more easier.
Anyways, we're talking about concentration camp guards. In the middle of Germany at the center of extremely tight security, they probably would have been caught and killed anyway. The only chance they might have had was to volunteer for the Waffen SS (many units were composed of former concentration camp guards and some of its most famous commanders-Theodore Eicke and others came from the camps) and desert at the first chance. Either way it's between a rock and a hard place.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

That's why I didn't limit my definition of atrocity.

War is by it's very definition an environment that puts young men in a position that emotions can lead to acts that an average person cannot imagine. All armies from all countries are susceptible to individual troops or small groups of troops committing atrocities out of revenge or some other emotion brought to the surface by the heat of the battlefield.

I've seen it first hand.

The average soldier, is not a criminal. No matter what country they are from, or what war they were in.

The German SS is condemned as a whole. I don't doubt that the majority are rightfully condemned for the actions of the group, since most knew what the SS was when they joined. But, there's a reasonable chance that certain members of the SS didn't participate in atrocities (I AM NOT DEFENDING THEM THOUGH).

My concern is that once we condemn an entire army or country, for the actions of a few, where does it stop??? What are our options, mass execution or jailing the entire military?

I know that's not what you meant, but...

BTW some of the SS most notably those from the Baltics (though there were plenty of volunteers from the Baltics also) were conscripted and they were exempt from punishment. I also agree about you on broad generalizations. There's always been (and always will) be an image of a 'clean' Wehrmacht while the Waffen SS are painted as the only criminals while in reality, much of the Wehrmacht was as bad as the SS and sometimes even worse.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

It was 70 years ago. Let it go. These men are all old and on death's door anyway. War crimes were committed by both sides, yet I don't see much of an outcry to prosecute those from the other side.

I'm not saying you don't know your history, but sit down and watch a holocaust documentary and then come back and give me the "come on, it's been 70 years" garbage. For god's sake they had to come up with a new term(crimes against humanity) to adequately describe the evil these men inflicted on the world. Just because they escaped justice after the war does not mean justice should be denied today.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

184769_v4.jpg


Growing up in a society like that can do a lot to the mind of a young person, I think the time has passed to prosecute these guys not only because their advanced age but because their defense would obviously rest on saying if they failed to obey orders they'd be killed themselves and that growing up in that society they didn't have much hope to be normal folks. A prosecution would have an extremely hard time proving that was not the case, and these guys would likely die before the issue was settled.

The prosecution would have no such burden. Coercion is no defense to murder, nor should it be. Also there is no statute of limitations on murder.

They could have deserted

Or died like virtuous men, if desertion was impossible.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Germany is STILL arresting WW2 vets because they were stationed at concentration camps.

BBC News - Germany arrests three suspected Auschwitz guards

Three men aged 88, 92 and 94 have been detained by German authorities on suspicion of being guards at the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz.

The homes of a number of men were raided in three German states, months after prosecutors investigating Nazi-era war crimes announced they were recommending charges against 30 people.



Is this fair? The youngest of the three would have been probably born in 1926, making him no older than 19 when the war ended. Additionally, it's not like these guys volunteered for the war, or even to be guards at Auschwitz. They were forced into it; almost every German male of military age was forced into fighting for the Third Reich. I don't think it's right for us to do this. It's ridiculous for a bunch of people lucky enough to be born in the post-war era to go back and persecute these people for things that happened 70 years ago, especially since these people couldn't have possibly hoped to stop anything. What would have happened if they refused to be guards at Auschwitz? They would have probably just been executed on the spot for refusing to obey orders.

Certainly not the rank-and-file. If there are any found above a certain rank (don't know what that might be), I think they should be prosecuted.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

The prosecution would have no such burden. Coercion is no defense to murder, nor should it be. Also there is no statute of limitations on murder.

Or died like virtuous men, if desertion was impossible.

Well actually it is, hypothetically if someone were to place a gun to your head and told you to kill someone else you could use that as a defense if you were ever prosecuted. The law does not require someone to die if they are being forced under threat of death to do something.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Well actually it is, hypothetically if someone were to place a gun to your head and told you to kill someone else you could use that as a defense if you were ever prosecuted. The law does not require someone to die if they are being forced under threat of death to do something.

No. Coercion is not a defense to murder, regardless of the degree of coercion (it's similar to the necessity defense, it's no defense to murder (see the case of Dudley and Stephens)). If you unlock a bank vault under coercion, that is a defense, but murder cannot be defended in court by arguing coercion, even if you were under threat of imminent death.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

At this point, we should just forgive and forget.
 
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