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Should German WWII vets be arrested?[W:260]

Should German WWII vets still be arrested?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 22.1%
  • No

    Votes: 29 42.6%
  • It depends

    Votes: 24 35.3%

  • Total voters
    68
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

How can they be prosecuted if they were following a direct order from their commanding officer? Honestly, I understand that this was a horrible circumstance, but if these guys are brought to justice, in my opinion, anyway, it'd make more soldiers hesitant about signing up, if they can be prosecuted for following an order they were forced to do.

Good, they should be hesitant to sign up.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

I agree that it is often difficult to do the right, moral thing, but that's what most people on this planet have always done.

Anyone who participated in the Holocaust should pay a price for that.

We certainly don't want a world regulated so that mass murder is allowed, when someone orders it done. As a matter of fact, we should organize to go after the money and supporters. Whoever finances and supports the regime that commits mass murder should be understood to be the criminal he or she is.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

They made their choice, when they voted for and allowed the writer of Mein Kampf and owner of the SA to be head of government. Every individual in a democracy is responsible for the actions of his or her government. And even in the army, I personally don't think that chain of command justifies participation in mass murder.
And don't forget. This guy was not lying. He set out pretty much in detail, what he planned to do.

So 19 year old boys, who were not even old enough to vote for anyone 1933, are responsible for the actions of his/her government? I do not think so. Also, serving in the military was hardly voluntary when it came to Hitler and his government.

Also, the way Hitler gained power was not really democratically. Hitler was also not the owner of the SA, the leader of the SA was Rohm, someone who was killed on Hilter's orders in the night of the long knives because the SA was threatening the supreme power of Hitler within the NSDAP.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

That does and should not justify participating in mass murder and the other things that were prevalent in Auschwitz. This was a case, where line of command is and can be no justification. Resistance is necessary to avoid being a criminal. It is a bad situation to get into. But **** happens.

With that attitude you and your family would have been shot. Good luck
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Ok, so we should start drafting the paperwork to try every German citizen born before 1939 with murder. When we're done with that, we can start drafting up the paperwork to charge all Americans with murder for all the murders that have been committed by our government in our names.

Oh, did anyone ever tell you democracy was easy sailing?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Oh, did anyone ever tell you democracy was easy sailing?

Of course not, but trying millions of people for murder because they elected an asshole is absurd. Your viewpoint is so extreme that not even extremists can get behind it.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Considering you want to try all Germans born prior to 1939 with murder, I guess it doesn't matter what he did or didn't do, does it?

Oh, you think killing someone involves the same level of criminal content as condoning it or verbal encouragement? That leads me to wonder.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Oh, you think killing someone involves the same level of criminal content as condoning it or verbal encouragement? That leads me to wonder.

Name one time in history an entire populace has been convicted of murder in a court of law for electing an asshole. You have zero precedent whatsoever and you're pulling things out of your ass.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Considering you want to try all Germans born prior to 1939 with murder, I guess it doesn't matter what he did or didn't do, does it?




That may be your view, but some people, including me, believe that old age shouldn't give anyone who committed war crimes amnesty.

I have no pity for any of those criminals.




IOW: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. ~ Baretta
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

So 19 year old boys, who were not even old enough to vote for anyone 1933, are responsible for the actions of his/her government? I do not think so. Also, serving in the military was hardly voluntary when it came to Hitler and his government.

Also, the way Hitler gained power was not really democratically. Hitler was also not the owner of the SA, the leader of the SA was Rohm, someone who was killed on Hilter's orders in the night of the long knives because the SA was threatening the supreme power of Hitler within the NSDAP.

He got about a third of the vote and the two thirds allowed him to have power. This is the man who had publish the bestseller Mein Kampf. 'Ever read the tomb? Allowing that man to gain power was criminal. Of course, not every German was equally criminal just like not every member of the mafia is equally responsible for each murder.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

With that attitude you and your family would have been shot. Good luck

Probably. I once lived a few houses down from a lady whose uncle and his wife were hanged on meat hooks, because they had stood up against the Führer. You are right. The choice is sometimes rather nasty. That is mitigating but does not decriminalize mass murder nor paying for it to happen.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

That may be your view, but some people, including me, believe that old age shouldn't give anyone who committed war crimes amnesty.

I have no pity for any of those criminals.




IOW: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. ~ Baretta

I think you've misunderstood. JoG went past wanting to try criminals and wants to try all Germans for murder that were of voting age when Hitler came to power.

Does that represent what you believe?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Of course not, but trying millions of people for murder because they elected an asshole is absurd. Your viewpoint is so extreme that not even extremists can get behind it.

An"asshole"? That is a friendly thing to say about the man. And I find your argumentation rather odd in an other thing. I had stated criminality and not the method to deal with it. For some reason you brought up the absurd proposal and put it in my mouth. I will not speculate on you motives.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

I think you've misunderstood. JoG went past wanting to try criminals and wants to try all Germans for murder that were of voting age when Hitler came to power.

Does that represent what you believe?




Nope, that's over the line.

I believe in holding people responsible for what they have done, or ordered done (Which is the same as doing it yourself.).
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Name one time in history an entire populace has been convicted of murder in a court of law for electing an asshole. You have zero precedent whatsoever and you're pulling things out of your ass.

Again you swerve off into never never land. Is that to give yourself an excuse to be rabid? You do know that expletives are usually a sign of lacking substance?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

An"asshole"? That is a friendly thing to say about the man. And I find your argumentation rather odd in an other thing. I had stated criminality and not the method to deal with it. For some reason you brought up the absurd proposal and put it in my mouth. I will not speculate on you motives.

I didn't make any such proposal, I repeated exactly what you said. You believe all voting age Germans during that period should be tried for murder. Considering how much you and I differ in opinion, we can't even possibly debate the actual topic at hand.

Nope, that's over the line.

I believe in holding people responsible for what they have done, or ordered done (Which is the same as doing it yourself.).


Good, now that we've recognized that you're not a ridiculous extremist like JoG, we can have an actual conversation about the OP instead of going off on one of her tangents.

The article states:

A court decided that by being a worker at a concentration camp he was guilty of being an accessory to murder. This meant that courts did not have to prove active participation in killing to find a suspect guilty of murder, BBC Berlin correspondent Stephen Evans reports.

Essentially, the courts are trying him for being stationed at Auschwitz, not for any evidence of actual wrong doing. I'm all about trying war criminals with evidence for their crimes, but the German government rounding up everyone who happened to be ordered to Auschwitz by the German government, and trying them for murder, is absolutely absurd.

One of the guys being tried was 19 at the time. Likely fresh off the train to his first station when the Soviets arrived. How many actual trigger-men did they need? The camp is huge, only a small fraction of those stationed there had actually anything to do with the extermination process. Why is that information completely irrelevant? How is manning a guard post the same as murder?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

I didn't make any such proposal, I repeated exactly what you said. You believe all voting age Germans during that period should be tried for murder. Considering how much you and I differ in opinion, we can't even possibly debate the actual topic at hand.



Good, now that we've recognized that you're not a ridiculous extremist like JoG, we can have an actual conversation about the OP instead of going off on one of her tangents.

The article states:



Essentially, the courts are trying him for being stationed at Auschwitz, not for any evidence of actual wrong doing. I'm all about trying war criminals with evidence for their crimes, but the German government rounding up everyone who happened to be ordered to Auschwitz by the German government, and trying them for murder, is absolutely absurd.

One of the guys being tried was 19 at the time. Likely fresh off the train to his first station when the Soviets arrived. How many actual trigger-men did they need? The camp is huge, only a small fraction of those stationed there had actually anything to do with the extermination process. Why is that information completely irrelevant? How is manning a guard post the same as murder?

I wonder what your agenda is. Participation in and financing of mass murder should not be a crime? That is rather perverse and yes, radical.
And misrepresenting, what was said is abnoxious.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

I wonder what your agenda is. Participation in and financing of mass murder should not be a crime? That is rather perverse and yes, radical.

Please go away. Nobody else here thinks that all Germans should be tried for murder for the holocaust. You're being ridiculous, and I feel like you're trolling me.

I'll respond when you provide a precedent where an entire population has been charged in a court of law for the crimes of their politicians.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Please go away. Nobody else here thinks that all Germans should be tried for murder for the holocaust. You're being ridiculous, and I feel like you're trolling me.

I'll respond when you provide a precedent where an entire population has been charged in a court of law for the crimes of their politicians.

You seem to have a real problem understanding, what was said. It seems a rather unpleasant character that would twist what was said to fit your agenda. And that is exactly, what you do in making your preposterous proposal of trails of every person, something that you adopted to make a point and now put in my mouth.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

You seem to have a real problem understanding, what was said. It seems a rather unpleasant character that would twist what was said to fit your agenda. And that is exactly, what you do in making your preposterous proposal of trails of every person, something that you adopted to make a point and now put in my mouth.

Seeing as how I'm done with you, I'll just post our conversation verbatim and let other people judge for themselves.

They made their choice, when they voted for and allowed the writer of Mein Kampf and owner of the SA to be head of government. Every individual in a democracy is responsible for the actions of his or her government. And even in the army, I personally don't think that chain of command justifies participation in mass murder.
And don't forget. This guy was not lying. He set out pretty much in detail, what he planned to do.
Ok, so we should start drafting the paperwork to try every German citizen born before 1939 with murder. When we're done with that, we can start drafting up the paperwork to charge all Americans with murder for all the murders that have been committed by our government in our names.
Oh, did anyone ever tell you democracy was easy sailing?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

He got about a third of the vote and the two thirds allowed him to have power. This is the man who had publish the bestseller Mein Kampf. 'Ever read the tomb? Allowing that man to gain power was criminal. Of course, not every German was equally criminal just like not every member of the mafia is equally responsible for each murder.

Allowed? Nobody allowed him to gain power, he grabbed power and nothing else. He forced all other competition (from the left side of the political hemisphere) out of the race by jailing people and scaring others out of the race.

The German people as a whole are not guilty for the crimes of Adolf Hilter and his NSDAP cronies.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Seeing as how I'm done with you, I'll just post our conversation verbatim and let other people judge for themselves.

And as you see, I did not propose bringing every German to court. That was your fabrication. There are many ways to deal with criminal behavior of whole populations. But instead of thinking about that, you went off on a rabid rampage.

But you are right in one thing. I do not think it sensible to continue to conversation.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Allowed? Nobody allowed him to gain power, he grabbed power and nothing else. He forced all other competition (from the left side of the political hemisphere) out of the race by jailing people and scaring others out of the race.

The German people as a whole are not guilty for the crimes of Adolf Hilter and his NSDAP cronies.

Trying to reason with joG is frankly a waste of time. She's so blinded by her hate for Germans that she completely forgets that her solution would effect her as well. Imagine everyone in America being punished for the actions of our leaders.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Allowed? Nobody allowed him to gain power, he grabbed power and nothing else. He forced all other competition (from the left side of the political hemisphere) out of the race by jailing people and scaring others out of the race.

The German people as a whole are not guilty for the crimes of Adolf Hilter and his NSDAP cronies.

As I pointed out people did resist and many died doing so. They were not responsible for the crimes.

But the man was voted into parliament and hoisted into power by democratic means. He had published his agenda. Everybody could read it and he had demonstrated that he meant what he had written. Anyone who did not resist, but paid loyally and thus enabled the country to do what the Führer had written that he would do was responsible. That he seized power once he was head of the government does not reduce the responsibility of the people.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

All military orders still require a person to use their common sense and humanity before following, so it's not that simple. If a commanding officer orders you to slaughter prisoners or non-combatants that would be an illegal order, and you would have no defense against your participation unless you could prove duress, or some other compelling strategic reason that required you to follow that order. For example: a covert team is behind enemy lines and a combatant surrenders to them, but they have no way of securing that prisoner without compromising the mission and possibly costing lives. In that unfortunate circumstance you might have an out.

As has been pointed out before, coercion and necessity are not defenses to murder.
 
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