• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Should German WWII vets be arrested?[W:260]

Should German WWII vets still be arrested?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 22.1%
  • No

    Votes: 29 42.6%
  • It depends

    Votes: 24 35.3%

  • Total voters
    68
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Oh come on man. Every case is different. You know perfectly well that in every crime perpetrated by numerous individuals that there are always degrees of guilt.

Was every one who was involved in the My Lai massacre guilty? Of course not. Every case has to be looked at individually.

Just as every case on this subject needs to be looked at individually.

AND...

'I don't care how long it has been or what pressure's they were under...if there is enough evidence to bring these people to trial...it should be done. And if they are convicted, they should be given - imo - the full punsihment that the law demands and the judge/jury ask for.'

It is where I stand on this and NOTHING you say will probably change that.

Maybe you like going around and around issues with each side manned by a person who has ZERO chance of changing their minds...I do not. Sounds like a gigantic waste of time.

I said let's agree to disagree...but you just won't let it go. So I will.

I am done here with you on this subject for now.


Good day.

Lol, whatever bro. If you think charging someone with murder who had absolutely nothing to do with the murders is a rational policy, then I can't help you. Guilt by association for an entire military base is ridiculous and completely without precedent in US or German history.

I'm glad when I was stationed at Ft. Bragg nobody went on a killing spree, otherwise I might get called up in 60 years that they want to charge me with murder because I was stationed there when it happened.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Oh come on man. Every case is different. You know perfectly well that in every crime perpetrated by numerous individuals that there are always degrees of guilt.

Was every one who was involved in the My Lai massacre guilty? Of course not. Every case has to be looked at individually.

Just as every case on this subject needs to be looked at individually.

AND...

'I don't care how long it has been or what pressure's they were under...if there is enough evidence to bring these people to trial...it should be done. And if they are convicted, they should be given - imo - the full punsihment that the law demands and the judge/jury ask for.'

It is where I stand on this and NOTHING you say will probably change that.


I said let's agree to disagree...but you just won't let it go. So I will.

I am done here with you on this subject for now.


Good day.

To which distance from "pulling the trigger" do you think the perps should have to stand in court? Remember that it is prevention of the next atrocities that the punishment is for. It is all about not letting situations like that occur.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Lol, whatever bro. If you think charging someone with murder who had absolutely nothing to do with the murders is a rational policy, then I can't help you. Guilt by association for an entire military base is ridiculous and completely without precedent in US or German history.

I'm glad when I was stationed at Ft. Bragg nobody went on a killing spree, otherwise I might get called up in 60 years that they want to charge me with murder because I was stationed there when it happened.

I never said that nonsense and you know it...you are now putting words in my mouth.

I thought you were better then that...I see I was wrong.

So be it.


You have NO WAY of knowing the degree of guilt of those being considered for charge..so save the 'they are all innocent' nonsense...because you were not there and you CANNOT know their guilt or innocence...that is up to a judge/jury to decide...not you or I.


I will not be reading any more of your posts on this subject as this is going nowhere fast.

Good day.
 
Last edited:
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

The justice seeking politics of Deutchland still at work even after 70 years never seize to amaze me. If only Serbia went after its war criminals with this much volition.

The reason that it has come up now is that it was not pursued earlier. There are no important people in power that were criminals at that time anymore. So the resistance to outing and punishment has declined.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

How can they be prosecuted if they were following a direct order from their commanding officer? Honestly, I understand that this was a horrible circumstance, but if these guys are brought to justice, in my opinion, anyway, it'd make more soldiers hesitant about signing up, if they can be prosecuted for following an order they were forced to do.

WWII established "following orders" as not being acceptable for committing genocide. Should have killed their nazi COs instead.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

To which distance from "pulling the trigger" do you think the perps should have to stand in court? Remember that it is prevention of the next atrocities that the punishment is for. It is all about not letting situations like that occur.

42.

:rolleyes:

Good day.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

The reason that it has come up now is that it was not pursued earlier. There are no important people in power that were criminals at that time anymore. So the resistance to outing and punishment has declined.

Sorry, I mentioned two genocidal countries: Nazi Deutchland and Serbia. Both have been murdering civilians and at various times had various powers.

Can you please be more specific so as I can understand you better? Which country, with which people in power, at what time, is no longer in power now (they cannot be for 70 years has passed), hence this persecution of Nazies (hope you mean them?) did not took place before?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Germany is STILL arresting WW2 vets because they were stationed at concentration camps.

BBC News - Germany arrests three suspected Auschwitz guards

Three men aged 88, 92 and 94 have been detained by German authorities on suspicion of being guards at the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz.

The homes of a number of men were raided in three German states, months after prosecutors investigating Nazi-era war crimes announced they were recommending charges against 30 people.



Is this fair? The youngest of the three would have been probably born in 1926, making him no older than 19 when the war ended. Additionally, it's not like these guys volunteered for the war, or even to be guards at Auschwitz. They were forced into it; almost every German male of military age was forced into fighting for the Third Reich. I don't think it's right for us to do this. It's ridiculous for a bunch of people lucky enough to be born in the post-war era to go back and persecute these people for things that happened 70 years ago, especially since these people couldn't have possibly hoped to stop anything. What would have happened if they refused to be guards at Auschwitz? They would have probably just been executed on the spot for refusing to obey orders.

Mm. That's a very good question. There's great arguments on both sides. On the one hand, there's no statute of limitations on participating in genocide, nor should there be...but on the other hand, it is true that these were just kids when they were drafted and ordered what to do, what to say, what to think.

I remember one day, in the wee hours of the morning, that we had the Shellback ceremony on board the USS Camden. There was one kid, a wog (meaning, one who had never crossed the equator before) who was not well liked by the crew. He had been told to get up on a capstan and we activated it to where it turned round and round, and we shellbacks were in a circle around the capstan hitting his backside with our shillelaghs...and we did so for several minutes - we were getting to the point of cruelty. The Chief Master-at-Arms saw what was going on and stopped us and took him out of the ceremony and made sure he got credit for getting through the entire ceremony.

I look back on that day and - though I still support the Shellback ceremony - I see that we were flat wrong in what we did to that kid. But more to the issue, I'm normally a gentle person who eschews violence (I've thrown one punch since the 9th grade)...but I was drawn into what was going on - I found out that I, too, was susceptible to mob psychology...and to this day I'm honestly frightened by it, by the realization that I, too, can be part of a violent, malicious mob given the right circumstances.

So what happens if the cruelty of the mob is government-sanctioned? That's what was going on in those days. Those kids were made part of that mob, told that they must support that mob, told what to say, what to think, and when they did so, they were rewarded for it...

...and thus the mob rules. For this reason, I think the men - who were in those days just kids doing what to do, say, think - should be forgiven, and allowed to get on with what remains of their lives.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

I never said that nonsense and you know it...you are now putting words in my mouth.

I thought you were better then that...I see I was wrong.

So be it.


You have NO WAY of knowing the degree of guilt of those being considered for charge..so save the 'they are all innocent' nonsense...because you were not there and you CANNOT know their guilt or innocence...that is up to a judge/jury to decide...not you or I.


I will not be reading any more of your posts on this subject as this is going nowhere fast.

Good day.

:shrug: I made it very clear to you from the article that they were charging them with accessory to murder regardless of whether they had anything to do with it or not. You have applauded this and argued for it. So yes, that is EXACTLY, verbatim what you said you want.

I'm sorry, I can't rationalize charging someone with murder that had nothing to do with the murders.


A court decided that by being a worker at a concentration camp he was guilty of being an accessory to murder. This meant that courts did not have to prove active participation in killing to find a suspect guilty of murder, BBC Berlin correspondent Stephen Evans reports.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

To what end? Go hide and have a high chance of being caught? Remember Germany was totalitarian which made surveillance and capture much more easier.
Anyways, we're talking about concentration camp guards. In the middle of Germany at the center of extremely tight security, they probably would have been caught and killed anyway. The only chance they might have had was to volunteer for the Waffen SS (many units were composed of former concentration camp guards and some of its most famous commanders-Theodore Eicke and others came from the camps) and desert at the first chance. Either way it's between a rock and a hard place.

Many did, if its a choice between an 80-90 percent chance of your own death or imprisonment or the deaths of hundreds of others then choosing the latter is extremely selfish.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Many did, if its a choice between an 80-90 percent chance of your own death or imprisonment or the deaths of hundreds of others then choosing the latter is extremely selfish.

I agree but if my family was threatened, I wouldn't carry out the task and rather commit suicide.
Then again, most if not all concentration camp guards volunteered so the entire hypothetical is technically incorrect.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Because it sends a message, that murder is one of the most serious crimes and that you can't get away with it by evading the authorities for a certain number of years.
"Oh look! Some German WWII veterans were pardoned from being accessories to murder because it has been a long time! I'm going to kill someone now!

It's not like people would turn themselves in when they remember these arrests that were made. What type of criminal would think "Oh, I'm going to turn myself in now because I don't want to risk that (less than) 1% chance of being found guilty 70 years later and having to serve my time during my final days with my withered body."?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

It's easy enough to say you'd make like a superhero as you type away on your keyboard, free from any such threats. I believe that, given the option of saving your own skin along with that of your family's, or taking the life of a complete stranger, most of us would fold in a heartbeat. This is what happened in Germany. I daresay most of the German population were sickened at what they must have known was going on, but turned a blind eye for fear of reprisals. This is always the way of it. No one condones that ****, but everyone's intimidated. Disappearances, torture and murder were daily life. In that situation, the majority will always batten down the hatches and wait out the storm, until someone puts a stop to it. Or until such time as it goes on long enough to provoke revolt.

Delusions of playing Rambo are juvenile and, quite frankly, unconvincing.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

It's easy enough to say you'd make like a superhero as you type away on your keyboard, free from any such threats. I believe that, given the option of saving your own skin along with that of your family's, or taking the life of a complete stranger, most of us would fold in a heartbeat. This is what happened in Germany. I daresay most of the German population were sickened at what they must have known was going on, but turned a blind eye for fear of reprisals. This is always the way of it. No one condones that ****, but everyone's intimidated. Disappearances, torture and murder were daily life. In that situation, the majority will always batten down the hatches and wait out the storm, until someone puts a stop to it. Or until such time as it goes on long enough to provoke revolt.

Delusions of playing Rambo are juvenile and, quite frankly, unconvincing.

Thankfully the legal system disagrees with you.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Thankfully the legal system disagrees with you.
The German people wouldn't have.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

WWII established "following orders" as not being acceptable for committing genocide. Should have killed their nazi COs instead.

It actually was established in post-Civil War trials against the South.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Lol, whatever bro. If you think charging someone with murder who had absolutely nothing to do with the murders is a rational policy, then I can't help you. Guilt by association for an entire military base is ridiculous and completely without precedent in US or German history.

I'm glad when I was stationed at Ft. Bragg nobody went on a killing spree, otherwise I might get called up in 60 years that they want to charge me with murder because I was stationed there when it happened.

Exaggerations aren't persuasive.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

It actually was established in post-Civil War trials against the South.

Only two Confederate soldiers were tried for war crimes, and in both cases the accused was not on trial for anything they were ordered to do by their commanding officers, but rather decisions they made entirely on their own.

President Andrew Johnson issued an unconditional pardon to Confederate war veterans in 1868. He decided that it would be better for the country to try to move forward instead of harping on the sins of the past.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Exaggerations aren't persuasive.

Here's a more realistic comparison. Remember the Abu Ghraib torture scandal? Do you think that a low ranking soldier who was following orders from his CO and stood guard while the prisoners were being tortured (but did not directly participate, just standing guard) should be charged for being complicit in torture? Because that is essentially what Germany is doing. Germany is going after former soldiers who followed their orders and stood guard.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

I think too many commenters are overlooking this fact:


A court decided that by being a worker at a concentration camp he was guilty of being an accessory to murder. This meant that courts did not have to prove active participation in killing to find a suspect guilty of murder, BBC Berlin correspondent Stephen Evans reports.​

This is an outrageous expansion of how we judge people culpable and secondly it creates a crime and a punishment for acts committed which were not crimes because this law didn't come about until much later.

This is akin to arresting all liberals and charging them with human rights violations for supporting the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1991. Huh? Oh yeah, at some future point some court decides that people who supported these Acts and followed the law are now guilty of stripping people of the right to free association by forcing them to hire people that they didn't want to hire.

Changing definitions of law, making up new laws and applying them retroactively is freaking evil.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

I agree but if my family was threatened, I wouldn't carry out the task and rather commit suicide.
Then again, most if not all concentration camp guards volunteered so the entire hypothetical is technically incorrect.

Where did i imply they volunteered?
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

This is an outrageous expansion of how we judge people culpable and secondly it creates a crime and a punishment for acts committed which were not crimes because this law didn't come about until much later.

Actually no it isn't its quite consistent with how we can prosecute conspiracies today and how somebody can be held liable as an accomplice both before the fact and after the fact. You don't need to actively murder to be complicit in murder. I'm not quite sure why you would say that actually.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Actually no it isn't its quite consistent with how we can prosecute conspiracies today and how somebody can be held liable as an accomplice both before the fact and after the fact. You don't need to actively murder to be complicit in murder. I'm not quite sure why you would say that actually.

So every employee who worked for Union Carbide is now guilty of being an accomplice to the deaths which occurred at Bhopal.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Germany is STILL arresting WW2 vets because they were stationed at concentration camps.

BBC News - Germany arrests three suspected Auschwitz guards

Three men aged 88, 92 and 94 have been detained by German authorities on suspicion of being guards at the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz.

The homes of a number of men were raided in three German states, months after prosecutors investigating Nazi-era war crimes announced they were recommending charges against 30 people.



Is this fair? The youngest of the three would have been probably born in 1926, making him no older than 19 when the war ended. Additionally, it's not like these guys volunteered for the war, or even to be guards at Auschwitz. They were forced into it; almost every German male of military age was forced into fighting for the Third Reich. I don't think it's right for us to do this. It's ridiculous for a bunch of people lucky enough to be born in the post-war era to go back and persecute these people for things that happened 70 years ago, especially since these people couldn't have possibly hoped to stop anything. What would have happened if they refused to be guards at Auschwitz? They would have probably just been executed on the spot for refusing to obey orders.


What you wrote is false. None were forced to be. Any German soldier could refuse to participate and if so they would be transferred out. Because the genocide was not formal German policy they would not court martial any German soldier who refused without a trial that would put such actions on record. Until the end, the German military had very strict protocols including for court martials.
 
Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

Not to disrespect those that died, but I think we should let bygones be bygones

Any person who participated in the death camps - whether German soldier, any other nationality soldier such as Ukranian etc or even Judas goat Jew - should be tried and held accountable even if on their death bed.
 
Back
Top Bottom