View Poll Results: Should German WWII vets still be arrested?

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Thread: Should German WWII vets be arrested?[W:260]

  1. #101
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    Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    As has been pointed out before, coercion and necessity are not defenses to murder.
    This isn't correct. "Murder" is an unlawful killing with malice. Not saying that the actions in question are not crimes, and more specifically 'war crimes'. But that doesn't automatically make them murder. What happens in a combat zone requires a different standard.

    As an example: a small unit of soldiers is on a covert operation behind enemy lines, and in the process a enemy combatant surrenders to this unit before they have completed their mission. They can't let the prisoner go and risk him compromising the mission, so they may have to kill that prisoner. Where there are no other options would that be murder in your mind?

    The matter of guards killing prisoners well within controlled territory would be a whole other story.

  2. #102
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    Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Zeppnile View Post
    This isn't correct. "Murder" is an unlawful killing with malice. Not saying that the actions in question are not crimes, and more specifically 'war crimes'. But that doesn't automatically make them murder. What happens in a combat zone requires a different standard.

    As an example: a small unit of soldiers is on a covert operation behind enemy lines, and in the process a enemy combatant surrenders to this unit before they have completed their mission. They can't let the prisoner go and risk him compromising the mission, so they may have to kill that prisoner. Where there are no other options would that be murder in your mind?

    The matter of guards killing prisoners well within controlled territory would be a whole other story.
    If they intend to inflict death on another person, without justifiable cause, then that is malice sufficient for murder, to which coercion and necessity are not defenses.

    Intentionally killing a surrendered prisoner (they're not trying to escape or alert the enemy to your location or the like) is murder. You aren't allowed to kill someone in your custody* based on what you think they might do later.

    *Judicially sanctioned executions excepted

  3. #103
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    Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    As I pointed out people did resist and many died doing so. They were not responsible for the crimes.

    But the man was voted into parliament and hoisted into power by democratic means. He had published his agenda. Everybody could read it and he had demonstrated that he meant what he had written. Anyone who did not resist, but paid loyally and thus enabled the country to do what the Führer had written that he would do was responsible. That he seized power once he was head of the government does not reduce the responsibility of the people.
    Hitler and his party might have been voted in by democratic means. That does not mean that the German people voted him into office. The politicians of the time thought they could hold Hitler down and make him a non-issue by giving him some power.

    Also, in a situation of crisis, and Germany was in a crisis like almost no crisis ever before, people follow the leader that promises to deliver them from that crisis. The reasons for the rise of Hitler were both domestic (German situation) as foreign (the way the first world war ended, the crash of 1929). In the only truly democratic elections the Nazi's participated in, they never got more than 33% of the vote.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

  4. #104
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    Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire X View Post
    Germany is STILL arresting WW2 vets because they were stationed at concentration camps.

    BBC News - Germany arrests three suspected Auschwitz guards

    Three men aged 88, 92 and 94 have been detained by German authorities on suspicion of being guards at the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz.

    The homes of a number of men were raided in three German states, months after prosecutors investigating Nazi-era war crimes announced they were recommending charges against 30 people.



    Is this fair? The youngest of the three would have been probably born in 1926, making him no older than 19 when the war ended. Additionally, it's not like these guys volunteered for the war, or even to be guards at Auschwitz. They were forced into it; almost every German male of military age was forced into fighting for the Third Reich. I don't think it's right for us to do this. It's ridiculous for a bunch of people lucky enough to be born in the post-war era to go back and persecute these people for things that happened 70 years ago, especially since these people couldn't have possibly hoped to stop anything. What would have happened if they refused to be guards at Auschwitz? They would have probably just been executed on the spot for refusing to obey orders.
    There's probably some whose crimes rise above, but for the most part I don't know what's accomplished by arresting men in their 90s. Unless they are actively still supporting the Nazi cause, which probably isn't the case for the most part.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Hitler and his party might have been voted in by democratic means. That does not mean that the German people voted him into office. The politicians of the time thought they could hold Hitler down and make him a non-issue by giving him some power.

    Also, in a situation of crisis, and Germany was in a crisis like almost no crisis ever before, people follow the leader that promises to deliver them from that crisis. The reasons for the rise of Hitler were both domestic (German situation) as foreign (the way the first world war ended, the crash of 1929). In the only truly democratic elections the Nazi's participated in, they never got more than 33% of the vote.
    When has it ever been necessary to garner more than 50% of the vote to be considered "voted into office" in a parliamentary style democracy? There seems to be a bit of a disconnect here when you say he was voted into power but he wasn't voted into office. Even if just 33% voted for his policies, that is STILL a frighteningly high number considering the extremity of the rhetoric, and although you somehow with to absolve the German public from responsibility, they still put him in place and still bear the responsibility for doing so.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  6. #106
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    Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

    If these men didn't commit murder, then they shouldn't be arrested for murder. Since that isn't what they were arrested for, then I have no problems with it.

    They were arrested on charges of accessory to murder. If they were guards there and they knew what was happening, then this is a very reasonable charge to me.

    As for their age, I'm sure their victims envy their age.

  7. #107
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    Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    If they intend to inflict death on another person, without justifiable cause, then that is malice sufficient for murder, to which coercion and necessity are not defenses.

    Intentionally killing a surrendered prisoner (they're not trying to escape or alert the enemy to your location or the like) is murder. You aren't allowed to kill someone in your custody* based on what you think they might do later.

    *Judicially sanctioned executions excepted
    My point is that during war there may be justifiable cause for a summary execution of a prisoner. Especially where there are no other options for that mission's success, or a possible loss of life for your own men. And when that enemy combatant is an illegal combatant, all bet are always off.

    But that is not what this topic is about. Camp guards cannot execute prisoners.

  8. #108
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    Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    When has it ever been necessary to garner more than 50% of the vote to be considered "voted into office" in a parliamentary style democracy? There seems to be a bit of a disconnect here when you say he was voted into power but he wasn't voted into office. Even if just 33% voted for his policies, that is STILL a frighteningly high number considering the extremity of the rhetoric, and although you somehow with to absolve the German public from responsibility, they still put him in place and still bear the responsibility for doing so.
    Well, in a lot of parliamentary democracies it is necessary to get over 50% to gain power. Maybe not in the US or countries based on the English voting system, but in a lot of democracies you need a government that can fall back on more than 50% of the votes to come into power.

    And if you are starving from hunger, unemployed and seriously looking for someone to look up too that can give you back a bit of pride, feed you and give you a job, you will look at those things first. Nobody in Germany could have predicted this outcome in 1932 when they voted for Hitler.

    And all of this is not an issue when it comes to arresting Germans if they have committed war crimes. If that is the case, then they have to be arrested and sentenced for their crimes.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfly View Post
    How can they be prosecuted if they were following a direct order from their commanding officer? Honestly, I understand that this was a horrible circumstance, but if these guys are brought to justice, in my opinion, anyway, it'd make more soldiers hesitant about signing up, if they can be prosecuted for following an order they were forced to do.
    Ask yourself a question. If you were ordered to participate in the murder of an ethnic group or a religion etc, would you do it? I would refuse and take whatever consequences that earned. What is your answer?

  10. #110
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    Re: Should German WWII vets be arrested?

    This question should have been asked sixty years ago.

    This late in the game, what purpose would it serve?

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