View Poll Results: Rape and clothing correlation

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  • I suspect women are wearing revealing clothes in most rape cases

    1 0.98%
  • I suspect that a man/woman will rape regardless of the victims clothing

    28 27.45%
  • I think some women are inviting dangerous attention when wearing revealing attire

    6 5.88%
  • I don't think clothes have anything to do with rape

    56 54.90%
  • Other

    11 10.78%
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Thread: Rape and Clothing

  1. #561
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    Re: Rape and Clothing

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I think it's really sad that more people don't do anything when a girl is being taken advantage like that. Those who sit and watch and don't do anything to try and stop it or AT LEAST call the police should be charged as accessories in some instances IMO.
    See, having been in the situation where someone did do something before anything could happen (really don't know if it would have happened, but it was stopped before anything more than unwanted rubbing of my arm while I was tipsy and trying to sleep on a couch at a friend's house was done), I tend to think that there are plenty of times when people do do something to stop such situations from occurring. The problem is that those types of things are not going to be advertised because that isn't news. Rape and sexual assault makes the news. Stopping someone from being able to rape someone else doesn't.
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    Re: Rape and Clothing

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    See, having been in the situation where someone did do something before anything could happen (really don't know if it would have happened, but it was stopped before anything more than unwanted rubbing of my arm while I was tipsy and trying to sleep on a couch at a friend's house was done), I tend to think that there are plenty of times when people do do something to stop such situations from occurring. The problem is that those types of things are not going to be advertised because that isn't news. Rape and sexual assault makes the news. Stopping someone from being able to rape someone else doesn't.
    That's true, but it is disturbing when you hear about those situations where nobody does step forward to help.

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    Re: Rape and Clothing

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Yes, but that is referring to rape in general, not date rape. It does not specify anything whatsoever as far as clothing is concerned in relation to date rape, which was the original question.

    No, it is referring to ALL rapes. There is NO correlation between clothing and rape. They looked for one and could not find one except for on RARE occasions, and that's a fact. Rape has to do with opportunity and vulnerability. Just because, in your eyes, a person who is dressed more provocatively is more vulnerable does not make it so.

    You're assuming that all of these guys are criminally insane geniuses who are "evil" from the ground up. I'm sorry, but there's simply no evidence to support that conclusion.

    That is the case for serial rapists. Don't get me wrong. However, by and large, date rapists tend to be a different breed all together.

    They might not be completely "normal guys," but that hardly means that they're Freddy Krueger either.

    Again, the boys in the Steubenville case had no prior history of "sociopathic" behavior, nor was there any indication that their assault was pre-meditated. They certainly haven't been clinically diagnosed as being "sociopaths" in the meantime either.
    No ever said they were criminal masterminds. WTH are you talking about? I said they suffer from sociopathy at least, and they do. Unless you are a child or a teenager, lack of empathy IS a sign of a mental disorder, like it or not.

    I think you'll find that most date rape cases have far more in common with that than they do whatever exaggerated scenario you seem to be picturing in your head right now.
    I have NO exaggerated picture in my head. That would be you, imagining that rapists see an attractive woman in sexually appealing clothing and targets HER for rape. THAT is not the case AT all. You do not understand the psyche of a rapist apparently. You should really do more research and educate yourself.


    A) A lot of bouncers will escort the dancers out to their cars at the end of the night.

    B) There actually is evidence to suggest that strippers do make up a disproportionate number of rape victims.

    Exotic dancers face real dangers

    I don't know about your link because that is just not true. The biggest sector of rape victims is prostitutes and NOT strippers. Why? Because the prostitutes are put in vulnerable situations and the strippers are NOT on a regular basis.


    Oookay. Still though, generally speaking, fat girls aren't going to be the most promiscuous women at the bar. They're simply going to be the ones with the lowest standards.

    In scientific studies, high levels of promiscuity are usually strongly correlated with high levels of attractiveness.
    Again, that is just not true. Anyone can be promiscuous. You just love to put people into boxes according to your own prejudices. You are extremely judgmental. It's a very unattractive personality trait.

    I fail to see how.

    A lot of men (probably even most) will make certain assumptions about a woman's intentions based upon her dress.
    I'm not surprised at all by this, sadly.

    A lot of promiscuous women (again, probably even most) will dress the part.
    Like others have told you, women do not dress the same way all the time. MOST women, when going out for a night, are going to be dressed at least SOMEWHAT provocatively. It has nothing to DO with promiscuity or sex. You really need to grow up in this manner.

    I didn't say that they "should." I said that it "would." There was no value judgment, just a statement of fact.

    If you wanted to be completely and totally sure that men didn't have any sexual thoughts about women, the burqa would be the way to go.
    No, they should dress how the want and not listen to bozos who try to tell them that they "might not get raped" if they dress in a certain manner. THAT is false and BAD information that you're passing around. THINK about that!!!

    However, that being said, I don't see any reason why that would be necessary. Women can dress how they want so long as they are safe.
    You keep saying things like this, but the rest of your postings belie your claims. You seem like a misogynist, I hate to say that, and I'm not trying to insult you, but you should be aware of that fact. This probably effect your "success rate" with women, and YOU really need to do some soul searching about some of your extreme views IMO. Sometimes you vaguely remind me of another poster here who doesn't try to hide the fact that he IS misogynist.

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    Re: Rape and Clothing

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Maybe this is something of a "chicken and egg" kind of situation, but you really cannot deny that the women who most commonly tend to be date raped also tend to be the most irresponsible in their behavior. This can include a perception of generalized "slutiness."

    Their style of dress often does play a role in why they are considered to be such in the first place.
    Proof?

    Because I've heard of and even met women who were date raped who were not "irresponsible" in their behavior and they certainly were not those that act like sluts. It sounds like you have a this preconceived set of beliefs and refuse to accept any information that conflicts with those things you believe about rape. Pretty sure very few women who are date raped have a reputation of being slutty or even dressing provocatively.

    Heck, the only real way to determine if date rape victims are more likely to be raped because of the way they dress is to examine the attire choices of as many victims as possible, and compare how provocative that might be compared to other women in the area and eliminate all other variables, including the way they act, their state of mind at the time (it isn't just alcohol and drugs that can make a woman more vulnerable, even things like a past abusive relationship or a hard breakup), low self esteem can make a woman appear more vulnerable, and therefore make them an easier target when it comes to rape, and lets not forget other things that could be used, such as blackmail. But comparing clothing would still be a subjective thing. How do you determine which woman is being more provocative if the women look different to begin with? A woman with great legs/ass and a nice rack could easily look more provocative in nice fitting jeans and baby doll T than a small chested, just skinny woman in a low cut shirt and a skirt. It could easily be argued that the second woman is showing off way more skin but not nearly as sexy as the woman in jeans and a T. And then it still would come down to other factors and the rapist himself.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    She was wearing tight short shorts and a tank top.

    In any case, I'm not suggesting that women should "dress like nuns." I'm simply suggesting that common sense would dictate that, when a woman dresses in a manner which tends to direct an untoward amount of sexual attention to her self, she often tends to invite men to make assumptions about her sexual intentions and proclivities.

    While this might not be guaranteed to attract a potential rapist's attention, it certainly would seem to increase one's odds of landing "on the radar."
    So, you have no idea how any other girls at that party were dressed comparatively then? Plus, she was already on their radar. They admitted that one of the main guys involved basically got her attention/interest sometime before the party, likely in school.

    The problem is that if every woman decided to try to lessen their chance on landing "on the radar" of a potential rapist by dressing "less provocatively" then the level of what is provocative or not would move down. Plus, women still want to attract men that they want to at least eventually be with. How do attract potential good mates without taking the risk of attracting rapists? Whatever you do, you take the chance of attracting both the good and the bad.

    And I would argue that trying to lessen the chances of attracting the "wrong attention" from men by dressing "more conservatively" and not trying to gain sexual attention could just as easily increase your chances of attracting the wrong attention rather than the more preferred attention (someone to actually be in a longterm relationship with) because it could easily make a girl look more vulnerable and/or lower self esteem enough for her to be more vulnerable to an abusive relationship. Afterall, if a woman isn't experienced with relationships, dating, interacting with men in a flirtatious way, she is less likely to recognize men who are a danger to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Exactly. There is also a huge difference between dressing attractively and dressing like a "slut."

    Women can do what they want in this regard, but I still find it highly unlikely that the latter approach does not attract a level of attention that can sometimes be problematic.
    Actually, dressing attractively and dressing like a slut are completely subjective. There is no way to determine the difference measurably. You can get a consensus, but then rapists could easily be outside of that consensus. Women dressed attractively are just as likely to gain male attention as those dressed like a slut, some even moreso. And that extra attention could also mean more potential rapists.

    Of course, if we are talking date rape, then the amount of attention attracted doesn't really increase the odds of how many potential rapists are attracted compared to potential loving, respectful mates. If a woman attracts the attention of say 10 men and 1 is a potential rapist, but a different woman dressed better attracts the attention of 100 men and 9 are potential rapists, then while the woman who attracted 9 potential rapists obviously attracted more potential rapists, she in fact lowered her chances of choosing a potential rapist to put herself into a bad place with. She could much more easily choose one of those other 92 men to date, whereas the one who only attracted 10 men total only has 9 other men to choose from.

    The problem here is that we can't know really what attracts any potential rapist to any victim, even when it is date rape. And, when it comes to date rape, there is also an element of her attraction to any guys she may attract as a factor as well when it comes to this. A woman who is attracting more guys, can be more choosy about who she goes out with, whereas a woman who attracts fewer guys could feel like she needs to settle for not-quite-perfect. Date rape does, afterall, require some sort of at least initial agreement to be on a date or going out. Basically she would have to choose to go somewhere with this guy.

    There are just too many other potential factors that influence rape to say that "a woman who dresses slutty or provocatively or scantily is more likely to be raped, so women should dress more conservatively to try to avoid being raped". It just isn't good advice as a general rule. Now, the way she is dressed can (wrongfully) be used against her later on if she is raped, but that is based on a stereotype and could easily be used against any potential rape victim unless every woman in the world dressed exactly the same since blaming a victim's attire at the time is an excuse.
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    Re: Rape and Clothing

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Proof?

    Because I've heard of and even met women who were date raped who were not "irresponsible" in their behavior and they certainly were not those that act like sluts. It sounds like you have a this preconceived set of beliefs and refuse to accept any information that conflicts with those things you believe about rape. Pretty sure very few women who are date raped have a reputation of being slutty or even dressing provocatively.

    Heck, the only real way to determine if date rape victims are more likely to be raped because of the way they dress is to examine the attire choices of as many victims as possible, and compare how provocative that might be compared to other women in the area and eliminate all other variables, including the way they act, their state of mind at the time (it isn't just alcohol and drugs that can make a woman more vulnerable, even things like a past abusive relationship or a hard breakup), low self esteem can make a woman appear more vulnerable, and therefore make them an easier target when it comes to rape, and lets not forget other things that could be used, such as blackmail. But comparing clothing would still be a subjective thing. How do you determine which woman is being more provocative if the women look different to begin with? A woman with great legs/ass and a nice rack could easily look more provocative in nice fitting jeans and baby doll T than a small chested, just skinny woman in a low cut shirt and a skirt. It could easily be argued that the second woman is showing off way more skin but not nearly as sexy as the woman in jeans and a T. And then it still would come down to other factors and the rapist himself.





    So, you have no idea how any other girls at that party were dressed comparatively then? Plus, she was already on their radar. They admitted that one of the main guys involved basically got her attention/interest sometime before the party, likely in school.

    The problem is that if every woman decided to try to lessen their chance on landing "on the radar" of a potential rapist by dressing "less provocatively" then the level of what is provocative or not would move down. Plus, women still want to attract men that they want to at least eventually be with. How do attract potential good mates without taking the risk of attracting rapists? Whatever you do, you take the chance of attracting both the good and the bad.

    And I would argue that trying to lessen the chances of attracting the "wrong attention" from men by dressing "more conservatively" and not trying to gain sexual attention could just as easily increase your chances of attracting the wrong attention rather than the more preferred attention (someone to actually be in a longterm relationship with) because it could easily make a girl look more vulnerable and/or lower self esteem enough for her to be more vulnerable to an abusive relationship. Afterall, if a woman isn't experienced with relationships, dating, interacting with men in a flirtatious way, she is less likely to recognize men who are a danger to her.



    Actually, dressing attractively and dressing like a slut are completely subjective. There is no way to determine the difference measurably. You can get a consensus, but then rapists could easily be outside of that consensus. Women dressed attractively are just as likely to gain male attention as those dressed like a slut, some even moreso. And that extra attention could also mean more potential rapists.

    Of course, if we are talking date rape, then the amount of attention attracted doesn't really increase the odds of how many potential rapists are attracted compared to potential loving, respectful mates. If a woman attracts the attention of say 10 men and 1 is a potential rapist, but a different woman dressed better attracts the attention of 100 men and 9 are potential rapists, then while the woman who attracted 9 potential rapists obviously attracted more potential rapists, she in fact lowered her chances of choosing a potential rapist to put herself into a bad place with. She could much more easily choose one of those other 92 men to date, whereas the one who only attracted 10 men total only has 9 other men to choose from.

    The problem here is that we can't know really what attracts any potential rapist to any victim, even when it is date rape. And, when it comes to date rape, there is also an element of her attraction to any guys she may attract as a factor as well when it comes to this. A woman who is attracting more guys, can be more choosy about who she goes out with, whereas a woman who attracts fewer guys could feel like she needs to settle for not-quite-perfect. Date rape does, afterall, require some sort of at least initial agreement to be on a date or going out. Basically she would have to choose to go somewhere with this guy.

    There are just too many other potential factors that influence rape to say that "a woman who dresses slutty or provocatively or scantily is more likely to be raped, so women should dress more conservatively to try to avoid being raped". It just isn't good advice as a general rule. Now, the way she is dressed can (wrongfully) be used against her later on if she is raped, but that is based on a stereotype and could easily be used against any potential rape victim unless every woman in the world dressed exactly the same since blaming a victim's attire at the time is an excuse.
    Great post!

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    Re: Rape and Clothing

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    No, it is referring to ALL rapes.
    Yes, and I'm not. That's exactly the point.

    There is NO correlation between clothing and rape. They looked for one and could not find one except for on RARE occasions, and that's a fact.
    Actually, it is really not. The fact of the matter is that the data is inconclusive; largely because it is hard to quantify factors like the "provocativeness" of clothing. Even many of the sources that have been posted in this thread make the caveat that it is a "tricky subject" before making the claim that there is "no evidence."

    Again, however; if you honestly think that deliberately revealing clothing doesn't draw attention to women that can sometimes be dangerous, I'd have to conclude that you simply weren't being honest with yourself.

    No ever said they were criminal masterminds. WTH are you talking about? I said they suffer from sociopathy at least, and they do. Unless you are a child or a teenager, lack of empathy IS a sign of a mental disorder, like it or not.
    The one source you have posted on the subject so far did not support this. It said that many of the men who rape on a one-off basis were likely "borderline" cases who were pushed over the edge by other factors.

    Again, if you want to assert that all rapists (not just the pathologically driven serial variety) are clinical sociopaths so fundamentally screwed up in the head that they can't even be relied upon to find the same things attractive that other men do (which was the original nature of the claim made by Rougenuke and yourself), you're going to have to provide some evidence to support that claim. So far, I haven't seen any.

    You do not understand the psyche of a rapist apparently.
    Again, Chris, you haven't even demonstrated that there is a "psyche" that goes along with most cases of date rape.

    I don't know about your link because that is just not true. The biggest sector of rape victims is prostitutes and NOT strippers. Why? Because the prostitutes are put in vulnerable situations and the strippers are NOT on a regular basis.
    And? I never claimed that strippers were the most likely targets, only that they were often targeted as well.

    Of course they're not "as vulnerable" as street walking prostitutes. As I've already pointed out, they have bodyguards!

    Clubs do that for a reason.

    There are some men out there who will choose to target strippers based upon their line of work, and the "sexual" persona it makes them present to the world.

    Again, that is just not true. Anyone can be promiscuous. You just love to put people into boxes according to your own prejudices. You are extremely judgmental. It's a very unattractive personality trait.
    The Truth Behind The Promiscuous Girls

    If you think someone is promiscuous, you might well be right. In a recent study conducted in the UK and published in Evolution and Human Behavior, Lynda Boothroyd showed that both men and women were able to judge the openness of men and women to a sexual fling based on photographs of their faces. The study showed that both genders judged men who looked “masculine” and women that looked “attractive” as, correctly, more open to casual sex.
    It's what studies have found.

    Like others have told you, women do not dress the same way all the time. MOST women, when going out for a night, are going to be dressed at least SOMEWHAT provocatively. It has nothing to DO with promiscuity or sex. You really need to grow up in this manner.
    I'm not talking about a "little black dress" and a pair of heels here, Chris. We both know that some women take things a heck of a lot farther than that.

    They do not do so for no reason, and men are going to pick up on those cues. Those women are either looking for sex, or a way to deliberately go out of their way to "tease" men just for kicks and giggles.

    The latter tends to be rather ill advised, under a lot of circumstances.

    No, they should dress how the want and not listen to bozos who try to tell them that they "might not get raped" if they dress in a certain manner. THAT is false and BAD information that you're passing around. THINK about that!!!
    As I've said before, even when they do dress dangerously, women can take precautions to protect themselves.

    However, they should not fool themselves into thinking that "letting everything hang out" doesn't put them "on the radar" of someone potentially dangerous in a way that more moderate clothing probably would not.

    You keep saying things like this, but the rest of your postings belie your claims. You seem like a misogynist, I hate to say that, and I'm not trying to insult you, but you should be aware of that fact. This probably effect your "success rate" with women, and YOU really need to do some soul searching about some of your extreme views IMO. Sometimes you vaguely remind me of another poster here who doesn't try to hide the fact that he IS misogynist.
    Again, my standards here are common sense, and I hold myself to them as well as women.

    No one should be taking foolish risks, least of all the vulnerable.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 02-20-14 at 11:30 AM.

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    Re: Rape and Clothing

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    night, try not to wear anything to reveling when you go to bed dont want people just jumping through your window and attacking you
    I'll have to invest in some feety pajamas or something.

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    Re: Rape and Clothing

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Yes, and I'm not. That's exactly the point.
    Well, you're wrong. There is no evidence that clothing plays a factor in rapes, any rapes, so you are making claims that are not real.

    Actually, it is really not. The fact of the matter is that the data is inconclusive; largely because it is hard to quantify factors like the "provocativeness" of clothing. Even many of the sources that have been posted in this thread make the caveat that it is a "tricky subject" before making the claim that there is "no evidence."

    Again, however; if you honestly think that deliberately revealing clothing doesn't draw attention to women that can sometimes be dangerous, I'd have to conclude that you simply weren't being honest with yourself.
    I and plenty of my friends have worn provocative clothing and have never been raped. However, my best friend as a 12-year-old was raped by her mother's boyfriend, and she DID not dress provocatively, and SHE was a little girl. RAPE has nothing to do with your clothing.

    Like Roguenuke says, I'll bet MOST date rapes have absolutely nothing to do with the woman's clothing. Men do NOT decide to rape a woman based upon what she is wearing, except for maybe in VERY rare instances. THAT is a myth. They rape because the opportunity has presented itself and the victim is in a vulnerable situation, OR they are a serial rapist and then it is even more complicated on how they go about "choosing" a victim. If there are two women, and one is dressed provocatively but NOT drunk and another is dressed more conservatively and is passed out, the rapist is NOT going to choose the more provocatively dressed female. He is going for the easiest target.

    Sure, in certain situations of date rape, a man might have asked out the woman to begin with because he found her attractive, but men find women attractive no matter what they are wearing, so that is just circular logic. I don't see how you can correlate these things in a rational manner.



    The one source you have posted on the subject so far did not support this. It said that many of the men who rape on a one-off basis were likely "borderline" cases who were pushed over the edge by other factors.
    Exactly. They had some kind of personality disorders to begin with, hence why they were "pushed over the edge" or perhaps they were drunk, but regardless these are "normal" and healthy men. These men have ISSUES, whether that be with women or with themselves.

    Again, if you want to assert that all rapists (not just the pathologically driven serial variety) are clinical sociopaths so fundamentally screwed up in the head that they can't even be relied upon to find the same things attractive that other men do (which was the original nature of the claim made by Rougenuke and your self), you're going to have to provide some evidence to support that claim. So far, I haven't seen any.
    I NEVER said that, but what people find attractive IS variable. AND some men might find a more conservatively dressed woman to be more attractive. Maybe they would think of her as cleaner and more innocent? There are too many variables for you to draw the conclusion that dressing provocatively leads to rape. It is a ridiculous jump with no evidence to support it because their are so many different variables involved. It is much more complicated than that.




    Again, Chris, you haven't even demonstrated that there is a "psyche" that goes along with most cases of date rape.
    WTH? That's only common sense! It almost sounds as if you are saying that ALL men are rapists or have the potential to be such. I certainly hope you can provide some evidence if that is the case because this is quite a SERIOUS accusation and would be a SERIOUS problem as far as men/women interacting goes.


    And? I claimed that strippers were the most likely targets, only that they were often targeted as well.

    Of course they're not "as vulnerable" as street walking prostitutes. As I've already pointed out, they have bodyguards!

    Clubs do that for a reason.
    The FACT is I searched for some valid data about this, and there is NOTHING to suggest that the instances of rape among strippers is higher than the regular population. That is NOT the case with prostitutes though.

    Bouncers could be rapists as well, especially if the things YOU are claiming are true. It must drive them crazy to be in the presence of these half naked/naked women all the time, so that is just ANOTHER statistic that would destroy your claims.

    There are some men out there who will choose to target strippers based upon their line of profession, and the "sexual" overtones it makes them present to the world.
    Proof?


    Again, that is just not true. Anyone can be promiscuous. You just love to put people into boxes according to your own prejudices. You are extremely judgmental. It's a very unattractive personality trait.

    The Truth Behind The Promiscuous Girls

    Most of the links you post about rape are shady to say the least, and they jump to a LOT of unfounded conclusions. It is ridiculous to suggest that because a person is attractive, he/she is more likely to be promiscuous, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    Plenty of people have different ideas of what is attractive and what is not. Some men like plump women and some men like more petite women. It can vary GREATLY as to what someone finds attractive.

    I'm not talking about a "little black dress" and a pair of heels here, Chris. We both know that some women take things a heck of a lot farther than that.

    They do not do so for no reason, and men are going to pick up on those cues. They're either looking for sex, or they are looking to deliberately go out of their way to "tease" men just for kicks and giggles.

    The latter tends to be rather ill advised, under a lot of circumstances.
    And what you are referring to above is a behavior. You can dress provocatively and NOT act slutty. And most of the women I see when I'm out are not taking things to the extremes that you are suggesting. There are always a couple of weirdos in any crowd.

    As I've said before, then they do dress dangerously, women can take precautions to protect themselves.

    However, they should not fool themselves into thinking that "letting everything hang out" doesn't put them "on the radar" of someone potentially dangerous in a way that more moderate clothing probably would not.
    Again, there are plenty of men who are turned off by those kinds of women, so it is completely subjective on what would "attract" a rapist.

    Again, my standards here are common sense, and I hold myself to them as well as women.

    No one should be taking foolish risks, least of all the vulnerable.
    Your standards are far from being common sense. You place too much importance on the small details that are too variable to draw definitive conclusions from, and you don't pay enough attention to the bigger picture.

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    Re: Rape and Clothing

    Quote Originally Posted by herenow1 View Post
    Ok Gath, since your focus right now seems to be on date rape and college campuses, please tell me if you think this pic is provocative. The picture below is how most college and high school girls dress to parties. They are not wearing the type of bikini pic you posted, and that pic is not realistic unless the woman was on the boardwalk or the beach. If your gf went out with the girls, would you tell her to change b/c she might attract rapists?

    Attachment 67162347
    Still would like to know if you find what the woman above wearing is sexually provocative since she's revealing skin. I mean wouldn't this also turn a lot of men's heads?

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    Re: Rape and Clothing

    Basically Gathomas, I could easily say that a woman who accepts a date from any man is technically putting herself at risk. On that note, perhaps people should have chaperons or something. Really that makes as much sense as the things you are suggesting.

    Rape is never the victim's fault or responsibility because, more so than ANYTHING she does, it is the rapist's mentality and just being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the existence of men who have the mentality that allows them to rape women that is the biggest contributing factor.

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