Is religious freedom actually possible

So ive done some thinking in the time since i last created a thread and this is one of the questions that has come up in my mind often. Now many of you will say yes and not bother to read this and others of you will say no and still not read this. So here is what i am going to do. im going to keep typing and hope someone bothers to read this.

So lets start off with an example. Personally im a supporter of gay/lesbian/bi rights, but consider how many religions exist out there that condemn homosexuality. And no this is not just rapping on Christianity. People groups in Islam,Judaism, im pretty sure Hinduism and Buddhism too, all put it down. And yet, if the gay rights activists are to be believed, then being gay/lesbian/bi is not a choice but a way of life chosen for them like being strait or homophobic is for the rest of us. Now, if all of those religions say put it down, and the government and the rest of the world is saying go screw your religion and let it happen, is religious freedom actually happening?

Again, i personally support gay rights, but i also believe in Christ as my savior. So if someone could clear it up for me without becoming a heated debate over why everyone hates me for bringing this up, it would be much obliged.

I stopped reading when I saw the word "gay." I've had enough of that topic. It's all we ever talk about on here.

However, no, I don't think religious freedom is ever completely possible. Consider that some religions have human sacrifice, that can never be allowed, and therefore their religious freedom has to be curtailed.

You're confusing freedom with authority.

It depends on what you mean. Is it possible to have absolute freedom for any and all religions to do what they all want to do? Not a chance. If you mean can they all believe what they want to believe, sure, nobody can control what nonsense goes on in someone's head, but when it comes to putting those thoughts into action, that's where freedom gets curtailed and for good reason.

JJB3333 said:

So ive done some thinking in the time since i last created a thread and this is one of the questions that has come up in my mind often. Now many of you will say yes and not bother to read this and others of you will say no and still not read this. So here is what i am going to do. im going to keep typing and hope someone bothers to read this.

So lets start off with an example. Personally im a supporter of gay/lesbian/bi rights, but consider how many religions exist out there that condemn homosexuality. And no this is not just rapping on Christianity. People groups in Islam,Judaism, im pretty sure Hinduism and Buddhism too, all put it down. And yet, if the gay rights activists are to be believed, then being gay/lesbian/bi is not a choice but a way of life chosen for them like being strait or homophobic is for the rest of us. Now, if all of those religions say put it down, and the government and the rest of the world is saying go screw your religion and let it happen, is religious freedom actually happening?

Again, i personally support gay rights, but i also believe in Christ as my savior. So if someone could clear it up for me without becoming a heated debate over why everyone hates me for bringing this up, it would be much obliged.

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How about we just each believe according to our conscience, and let others do the same, and otherwise don't try to impose our beliefs on others, whether religious or secular or ideological or etc.

Close enough for me. In my private life I'm pretty libertarian: I rarely stick my nose into other's business uninvited, unless what they're doing directly impacts my life. Most of the time it really doesn't.

If we can prevent the Unthinking Left from destroying it...Yes.

ChezC3 said:

If we can prevent the Unthinking Left from destroying it...Yes.

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:doh

Classic Conservative Persecution Complex.

Far Right Wing Christians are slowly be disallowed from using their political power to deny gays rights.

"WE'RE BEING OPPRESSED"

So what do you say to those christian tea partiers that wanted to stop Muslims from building a Mosque?

JJB3333 said:

So ive done some thinking in the time since i last created a thread and this is one of the questions that has come up in my mind often. Now many of you will say yes and not bother to read this and others of you will say no and still not read this. So here is what i am going to do. im going to keep typing and hope someone bothers to read this.

So lets start off with an example. Personally im a supporter of gay/lesbian/bi rights, but consider how many religions exist out there that condemn homosexuality. And no this is not just rapping on Christianity. People groups in Islam,Judaism, im pretty sure Hinduism and Buddhism too, all put it down. And yet, if the gay rights activists are to be believed, then being gay/lesbian/bi is not a choice but a way of life chosen for them like being strait or homophobic is for the rest of us. Now, if all of those religions say put it down, and the government and the rest of the world is saying go screw your religion and let it happen, is religious freedom actually happening?

Again, i personally support gay rights, but i also believe in Christ as my savior. So if someone could clear it up for me without becoming a heated debate over why everyone hates me for bringing this up, it would be much obliged.

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It would depend on how you define freedom. The American tradition has always been rather libertarianesque, and it is growing more so. If you define freedom as allowing everyone to be how they wish to be, then freedom of religion prevails in spades. But if you define freedom as being free to impose your own religious imperatives on others, not just on yourself, then no we do not have religious freedom. And you are right that the gay issue is an example of it, but there are many, many more. Consider divorce. Catholics generally don't condone it but our laws permit it. Are Catholics having their religious freedom imposed upon because they can't impose their doctrine on others?

So, we define freedom in the only way that is consistent with each person having control over their own choice in theology and/or philosophy. Truly the only one where everyone is free, not just 50.00001% of us.

no.... unless you buy your own island/ live in a cave away from other people.

JJB3333 said:

Again, i personally support gay rights, but i also believe in Christ as my savior. So if someone could clear it up for me without becoming a heated debate over why everyone hates me for bringing this up, it would be much obliged.

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If "religious freedom" conflicts with basic human rights - no, it's not possible.

JJB3333 said:

So ive done some thinking in the time since i last created a thread and this is one of the questions that has come up in my mind often. Now many of you will say yes and not bother to read this and others of you will say no and still not read this. So here is what i am going to do. im going to keep typing and hope someone bothers to read this.

So lets start off with an example. Personally im a supporter of gay/lesbian/bi rights, but consider how many religions exist out there that condemn homosexuality. And no this is not just rapping on Christianity. People groups in Islam,Judaism, im pretty sure Hinduism and Buddhism too, all put it down. And yet, if the gay rights activists are to be believed, then being gay/lesbian/bi is not a choice but a way of life chosen for them like being strait or homophobic is for the rest of us. Now, if all of those religions say put it down, and the government and the rest of the world is saying go screw your religion and let it happen, is religious freedom actually happening?

Again, i personally support gay rights, but i also believe in Christ as my savior. So if someone could clear it up for me without becoming a heated debate over why everyone hates me for bringing this up, it would be much obliged.

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YOU have the religious freedom to not be in a same sex marriage, or get divorced, or have an abortion, etc, but you do not have the religious freedom to make me live by your religious rules. If you were allowed to enforce your religious rules on me then I do not have religious freedom. Something being legal does not mean that you have to partake of it.

Everyone has the freedom to believe whatever they want to believe, as long as those beliefs are not limiting the freedom of others..

How about we found the Everybody Mind Their Own Damn Business party?


Works for me. If you ain't doing it in my house or yard, or in my vehicle, or hurting me with it directly, or trying to shove it down my throat... I don't really much care.

Jetboogieman said:

:doh

Classic Conservative Persecution Complex.

Far Right Wing Christians are slowly be disallowed from using their political power to deny gays rights.

"WE'RE BEING OPPRESSED"

So what do you say to those christian tea partiers that wanted to stop Muslims from building a Mosque?

Click to expand...

Classic I just made an ass of myself by assuming complex...

Shame on them.

I'm not a WE're...

inshallah...

Surat Al-Baqarah [2:216]

Goshin said:

How about we found the Everybody Mind Their Own Damn Business party?


Works for me. If you ain't doing it in my house or yard, or in my vehicle, or hurting me with it directly, or trying to shove it down my throat... I don't really much care.

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Anarchy? Ballsy move, Goshin.

Religion hinders critical thinking and knowledge. Thus it enslaves the mind to the same old written nonsense in their "holy" books.

Hence "religious freedom" is an oxymoron.

If your idea of religious freedom is to force others to conform to your beliefs, then no.

The root of this question is freedom in general. Where does freedom really reside? It's a state of being that is not tied to circumstance. We were born free, live free, and die free. It only ceases to be true when you believe it to be so. It's not much different from unconditional love. If you can learn to love humanity for what it is, the good and the bad, the beautiful and the ugly, without holding any of it responsible for whether or not you love, then you are free. The basis of freedom is non-attachment/non-dependence.

I have a lot of respect for the religions of the world so please don't take what I'm about to say too personally. Religion requires discernment. Some people believe religion word for word while others completely dismiss it. The truth is somewhere in the middle. If you really want to extract core truth from religious teachings then you have to be willing to dive in and practice discernment.

If you're a genuine truth seeker then you can't possibly swallow religion whole, and there's no betrayal in saying so. I think that is the happy medium we are headed toward. Things like homosexuality are a testing ground where we apply discernment and rationally conclude that there is nothing wrong.

In line with this, there has to come a point when we are able to collectively acknowledge that there is a lot about religion that is simply wrong, and that's okay. There's no such thing as a perfect ideology anywhere, and it's imperfection which largely defines human progress. Up until now religion has had a special unquestionable status, and that's wrong. Humanity can't live in ideological stasis. It's fundamentalism and dogmatism which holds us back. We don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water, but we do need to develop the emotional maturity as a species to acknowledge ideological weakness and root it out. If people aren't willing to do that then they are not really seeking spiritual truth, but subservience.

Freedom comes from the heart. If you can really love unconditionally, then the answer to "religious freedom" is obvious. And AFAIK, most religions textually state that it's up to God and not humans to judge one another, so we should be letting go of that bad habit anyway.

DDD said:

Religion hinders critical thinking and knowledge. Thus it enslaves the mind to the same old written nonsense in their "holy" books.

Hence "religious freedom" is an oxymoron.

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Balderdash, poppycock, rubbish and above all, phooey...

Our nation has to face reality.
We have never had complete "religious and free from religion " freedom.
Just try being an atheist.....as an example.....
The problem is with the extremist/conservative....in my opinion....and my experience.....
I voted "maybe".....if and when all learn tolerance and respect....

Simpy put no. Almost every major religion has a dictatorial aspect built in and wants to dominate, which in turn means religious freedom is a myth. The closest you get to religious freedom is in certain European countries where religion is not part of public life but is a personal thing. But even then there are religious aspects incorporated into the state mechanism and they usually favour one religion over others.

Freedom of religion is the right to practice said religion without any meddling but it is also the right of others not to be pressured and dictated by said religions and this is the constant battle going on all countries. In most religion is winning (take Spain and its new anti-abortion laws) and in the few religion has very little (but still has some) influence on day to day life.

DDD said:

Religion hinders critical thinking and knowledge. Thus it enslaves the mind to the same old written nonsense in their "holy" books.

Hence "religious freedom" is an oxymoron.

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Tell that to the legions of scientists worldwide who follow religions.

Yes all freedoms end where others begin. However, there is no loss of freedom to Ed the born again fundamentalist Christian because Bob and Fred get married.

JJB3333 said:

So ive done some thinking in the time since i last created a thread and this is one of the questions that has come up in my mind often. Now many of you will say yes and not bother to read this and others of you will say no and still not read this. So here is what i am going to do. im going to keep typing and hope someone bothers to read this.

So lets start off with an example. Personally im a supporter of gay/lesbian/bi rights, but consider how many religions exist out there that condemn homosexuality. And no this is not just rapping on Christianity. People groups in Islam,Judaism, im pretty sure Hinduism and Buddhism too, all put it down. And yet, if the gay rights activists are to be believed, then being gay/lesbian/bi is not a choice but a way of life chosen for them like being strait or homophobic is for the rest of us. Now, if all of those religions say put it down, and the government and the rest of the world is saying go screw your religion and let it happen, is religious freedom actually happening?

Again, i personally support gay rights, but i also believe in Christ as my savior. So if someone could clear it up for me without becoming a heated debate over why everyone hates me for bringing this up, it would be much obliged.

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If society growing in more acceptance of gay (et al) lifestyles and my faith’s disagreement with this is losing the battle, this doesn’t affect my religious liberties whatsoever. I can’t speak for other faiths/religions, but I am a Christian and can only speak for that. God condemns homosexuality. Throughout the New Testament it’s pretty clear. For those that don’t hold that faith and support gay relationships, it doesn’t much matter what the bible says. If you claim you are a believer, your faith should compel you to reject this behavior. That does not mean you should go around shaking your judgmental finger at them. The example Jesus set was not to accept them, but to love them; and through this love hopefully they will change their ways.

I am by no means questioning your faith; I’m only stating what’s in that Book that Christians follow as our user’s manual. You either believe what it says or you don’t. None of this prevents me from practicing my faith. Once my government comes in and bans it, or someone kills me for practicing it, then I am no longer free to practice it.

JJB3333 said:

So ive done some thinking in the time since i last created a thread and this is one of the questions that has come up in my mind often. Now many of you will say yes and not bother to read this and others of you will say no and still not read this. So here is what i am going to do. im going to keep typing and hope someone bothers to read this.

So lets start off with an example. Personally im a supporter of gay/lesbian/bi rights, but consider how many religions exist out there that condemn homosexuality. And no this is not just rapping on Christianity. People groups in Islam,Judaism, im pretty sure Hinduism and Buddhism too, all put it down. And yet, if the gay rights activists are to be believed, then being gay/lesbian/bi is not a choice but a way of life chosen for them like being strait or homophobic is for the rest of us. Now, if all of those religions say put it down, and the government and the rest of the world is saying go screw your religion and let it happen, is religious freedom actually happening?

Again, i personally support gay rights, but i also believe in Christ as my savior. So if someone could clear it up for me without becoming a heated debate over why everyone hates me for bringing this up, it would be much obliged.

Click to expand...

Why should religious freedom clash with civil rights for gays? The fact that gays can marry does not interfere with people's religious freedom. The problem might be that people want to push their religious views on the entire population and that has nothing to do with religious freedom but with religious dictatorship.

That applies for several issues that religious people feel very strongly about and that they not only want themselves to comply to but want everybody else in the country/world to comply with too.