View Poll Results: Is religious freedom actually possible?

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Thread: Is religious freedom actually possible

  1. #61
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by JJB3333 View Post
    So ive done some thinking in the time since i last created a thread and this is one of the questions that has come up in my mind often. Now many of you will say yes and not bother to read this and others of you will say no and still not read this. So here is what i am going to do. im going to keep typing and hope someone bothers to read this.

    So lets start off with an example. Personally im a supporter of gay/lesbian/bi rights, but consider how many religions exist out there that condemn homosexuality. And no this is not just rapping on Christianity. People groups in Islam,Judaism, im pretty sure Hinduism and Buddhism too, all put it down. And yet, if the gay rights activists are to be believed, then being gay/lesbian/bi is not a choice but a way of life chosen for them like being strait or homophobic is for the rest of us. Now, if all of those religions say put it down, and the government and the rest of the world is saying go screw your religion and let it happen, is religious freedom actually happening?

    Again, i personally support gay rights, but i also believe in Christ as my savior. So if someone could clear it up for me without becoming a heated debate over why everyone hates me for bringing this up, it would be much obliged.
    Religious freedom for the "individual" is the right to practice their religion without interference. It has a responsibility component however and that is to allow others to practice their religions without interference as well. IMO it is your right to worship (or not) as you wish so long as your rights do not impede the rights of others. What your rights don't include is reacting to and attempting to prevent the way others worship.

    I'm going to assume for arguments sake that since you brought up the word gay you are examining the premise that if a religion does not believe in "gay" as a viable choice that they have a right or even an obligation to prevent others than themselves from doing that. The short answer is no. You wouldn't tolerate a follower of Islam from telling you how to worship so why would you think that you have the ability to demand others do it your way.

    Freedom involves tolerance.

  2. #62
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric7216 View Post
    I don't think that is the problem. The problems seems to be that some seem to want more than just rights, they want societal approval, even from people who would be opposed. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 18, says it best:
    "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."

    That seems to allow an intolerant view toward others as long as you are not interfering with others. And the others have to be tolerant to you as long as they don't interfere with you. A person is allowed to hate me and not serve me or sell to me. I have to go elsewhere. It would be intolerant if I insisted that he conform to my reality and views.
    What are "basic human rights"? Is it logical that simply because I have a business I surrender my freedom of thought and conscience? The person can simply go to someone else. It is illogical to demand that I do something simply because I started something that I did not have to start. A person does not become a slave to some "societal standards" simply because he wants to sell a product. It is wrong to force people to do commerce with each other.
    We as a society have decided that specific "freedoms of conscious" do not deserve tolerance.

    A business may not refuse service based on a person’s race, religion, sex, or other "protected characteristics."
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  3. #63
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    We as a society have decided that specific "freedoms of conscious" do not deserve tolerance.

    A business may not refuse service based on a person’s race, religion, sex, or other "protected characteristics."
    So we violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? And we declare that a simple majority is more important than a human rights? Sounds wrong to me. I guess when the majority supported the owning of slaves than slavery was not just legal but moral, according to societal values. Seems contrary to some important Constitutional rules that prevent a dictatorship of the majority.

  4. #64
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    If the government mandates employer provider insurance, then it becomes a right for all employees of businesses covered by the mandate.
    No, it doesn't. It becomes involuntary servitude. Rights don't take labor or service from others.

    The employer's opinion is irrelevant, whether it is a corporation or a branch of a religious organization, unless it is a position that requires the employee to model and represent the employer's philosophy. For example it is OK for Catholic Charities to deny insurance coverage for birth control for priests and nuns, but it is not acceptable for the organization to deny deny insurance coverage for birth control for the janitor who may not be Catholic.
    Yes, it is. They are providing the service and can deny it to whomever they damn well please.

  5. #65
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    We as a society have decided that specific "freedoms of conscious" do not deserve tolerance.

    A business may not refuse service based on a person’s race, religion, sex, or other "protected characteristics."
    Sounds like we as society decided to turn other people into slaves to me. I don't tolerate slavery myself.

  6. #66
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    People are free to believe whatever they want and to express their opinions. It is only certain actions that are prohibited such as illegal discrimination or expressing discriminatory opinions while working and representing one's employer.
    Lets name the rights your argument violates.

    Property
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    Labor
    Speech

  7. #67
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric7216 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    We as a society have decided that specific "freedoms of conscious" do not deserve tolerance.

    A business may not refuse service based on a person’s race, religion, sex, or other "protected characteristics."
    So we violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? And we declare that a simple majority is more important than a human rights? Sounds wrong to me. I guess when the majority supported the owning of slaves than slavery was not just legal but moral, according to societal values. Seems contrary to some important Constitutional rules that prevent a dictatorship of the majority.
    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Sounds like we as society decided to turn other people into slaves to me. I don't tolerate slavery myself.
    You can't discriminate against gays or females or racial minorities. Aww shucks. Such a hard life.
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    You can't discriminate against gays or females or racial minorities. Aww shucks. Such a hard life.
    A libertarian that doesn't believe in voluntary arrangements and property rights is worthless.

  9. #69
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    A libertarian that doesn't believe in voluntary arrangements and property rights is worthless.
    Or just a white heterosexual male.
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    Or just a white heterosexual male.
    I don't care if you're gay and nor does libertarianism. If you support forcing people into service for others and ignoring the right of property owners to control access and use of their property you're a faux libertarian.

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