View Poll Results: Is religious freedom actually possible?

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  • Yes

    31 57.41%
  • No

    15 27.78%
  • Maybe

    6 11.11%
  • I didnt bother reading the post so yes

    0 0%
  • I didn't bother reading the post so no

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Thread: Is religious freedom actually possible

  1. #91
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Yes but there are areas where civil rights and other BOR issues may conflict with how some religious person wishes to practice their religious freedom....that was a point I was trying to make.... Is the OP asking if someone can have complete religious freedom within the US under our Constitution?
    What's "BOR"? Anyway, that's how I interpreted the question and why the answer is no.

    If the religious freedom conflicts with basic human rights -- no, the religious freedom is not possible.
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    What's "BOR"?
    Bill of Rights
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by alsos View Post
    Are you even aware of what the topic is?
    Yup, are you aware that I was responding to what someone had written?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    What's "BOR"? Anyway, that's how I interpreted the question and why the answer is no.

    If the religious freedom conflicts with basic human rights -- no, the religious freedom is not possible.
    The Bill of Rights.
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric7216 View Post
    ..... Is it logical that simply because I have a business I surrender my freedom of thought and conscience? The person can simply go to someone else. It is illogical to demand that I do something simply because I started something that I did not have to start. A person does not become a slave to some "societal standards" simply because he wants to sell a product. It is wrong to force people to do commerce with each other.
    When you have a business the government regulates where it can be located, the type of building you can use, the type of sign you display, how you can fire and hire people, the minimum wage, how you dispose of waste, and fire and other safety requirements. You are also required to document your income and expenses to pay your taxes and get deductions. If you have a restaurant, you will be inspected to make sure that the food is protected properly from spoilage and contamination, that the employees wash their hands and wear proper clothing and hair nets etc, that you have pests under control, provide access to the disabled, have accessible restrooms and much more.

    Out of all these regulations and requirements, none of which are loved by conservatives-libertarians, the one mentioned most often as onerous and unfair is the requirement that employees and customers are not subject to racial, religious etc. discrimination by business. Ironically, while advocating for allowing discrimination in public accommodations, they also argue that such discrimination would not happen very much, if at all, because people have changed since the Jim Crow days and it would harm the business.

    My opinion is that the harm from business discrimination against potential employees, employees and customers outweighs the harm from being "forced" to tolerate undesirable races, religions etc in one's business. I don't believe that such discrimination will be as rare as claimed. These days it is as likely to be directed at Muslims and gays as blacks, but the tendency to ignorantly, irrationally and/or arbitrarily discriminate has not been sufficiently eliminated yet. For evidence, just look at all the racism and bigotry expressed on this forum and other public fora.

    Also, I am willing to recognize the damage that it would cause to society and vulnerable people, something the conservative-libertarians ignore or downplay. In small towns, isolated and rural areas, just one or two discriminatory businesses could keep a significant portion of the population from getting a job, shopping, getting a place to live etc. without leaving town. Businesses have the ability to oppress people in their daily lives as much or more than government, especially in these days of a handful of mega-corporations, malls and big box retail dominating retail and services. Addressing government discrimination while allowing business discrimination requires tolerating discrimination and the hardship and oppression it will impose on unpopular minorities and society as a whole.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 02-12-14 at 03:21 PM.

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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by JJB3333 View Post
    So ive done some thinking in the time since i last created a thread and this is one of the questions that has come up in my mind often. Now many of you will say yes and not bother to read this and others of you will say no and still not read this. So here is what i am going to do. im going to keep typing and hope someone bothers to read this.

    So lets start off with an example. Personally im a supporter of gay/lesbian/bi rights, but consider how many religions exist out there that condemn homosexuality. And no this is not just rapping on Christianity. People groups in Islam,Judaism, im pretty sure Hinduism and Buddhism too, all put it down. And yet, if the gay rights activists are to be believed, then being gay/lesbian/bi is not a choice but a way of life chosen for them like being strait or homophobic is for the rest of us. Now, if all of those religions say put it down, and the government and the rest of the world is saying go screw your religion and let it happen, is religious freedom actually happening?

    Again, i personally support gay rights, but i also believe in Christ as my savior. So if someone could clear it up for me without becoming a heated debate over why everyone hates me for bringing this up, it would be much obliged.
    I voted yes but If you mean the freedom to force your religious views on others then NO. That is not freedom it is tyranny.

  7. #97
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Freedom has consequences and sometimes people will do things that you find disagreeable, stupid, or even hateful, but that doesn't mean they are in violation of anyones rights, and it doesn't mean the state should act.

    how true that is!

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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    When you have a business the government regulates where it can be located, the type of building you can use, the type of sign you display, how you can fire and hire people, the minimum wage, how you dispose of waste, and fire and other safety requirements. You are also required to document your income and expenses to pay your taxes and get deductions. If you have a restaurant, you will be inspected to make sure that the food is protected properly from spoilage and contamination, that the employees wash their hands and wear proper clothing and hair nets etc, that you have pests under control, provide access to the disabled, have accessible restrooms and much more.

    Out of all these regulations and requirements, none of which are loved by conservatives-libertarians, the one mentioned most often as onerous and unfair is the requirement that employees and customers are not subject to racial, religious etc. discrimination by business. Ironically, while advocating for allowing discrimination in public accommodations, they also argue that such discrimination would not happen very much, if at all, because people have changed since the Jim Crow days and it would harm the business.

    My opinion is that the harm from business discrimination against potential employees, employees and customers outweighs the harm from being "forced" to tolerate undesirable races, religions etc in one's business. I don't believe that such discrimination will be as rare as claimed. These days it is as likely to be directed at Muslims and gays as blacks, but the tendency to ignorantly, irrationally and/or arbitrarily discriminate has not been sufficiently eliminated yet. For evidence, just look at all the racism and bigotry expressed on this forum and other public fora.

    Also, I am willing to recognize the damage that it would cause to society and vulnerable people, something the conservative-libertarians ignore or downplay. In small towns, isolated and rural areas, just one or two discriminatory businesses could keep a significant portion of the population from getting a job, shopping, getting a place to live etc. without leaving town. Businesses have the ability to oppress people in their daily lives as much or more than government, especially in these days of a handful of mega-corporations, malls and big box retail dominating retail and services. Addressing government discrimination while allowing business discrimination requires tolerating discrimination and the hardship and oppression it will impose on unpopular minorities and society as a whole.
    You are so right. Every time I hear "people have changed" I remember Alan Greenspan in the days before the Bank deregulation in 2000. He went on and on about how those old laws were not needed and bankers would NEVER behave like they did in the 1920's. 7 years later the entire financial system collapsed much like it did way back when. Will we never learn?

  9. #99
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    When you have a business the government regulates where it can be located, the type of building you can use, the type of sign you display, how you can fire and hire people, the minimum wage, how you dispose of waste, and fire and other safety requirements. You are also required to document your income and expenses to pay your taxes and get deductions. If you have a restaurant, you will be inspected to make sure that the food is protected properly from spoilage and contamination, that the employees wash their hands and wear proper clothing and hair nets etc, that you have pests under control, provide access to the disabled, have accessible restrooms and much more.

    Out of all these regulations and requirements, none of which are loved by conservatives-libertarians, the one mentioned most often as onerous and unfair is the requirement that employees and customers are not subject to racial, religious etc. discrimination by business. Ironically, while advocating for allowing discrimination in public accommodations, they also argue that such discrimination would not happen very much, if at all, because people have changed since the Jim Crow days and it would harm the business.

    My opinion is that the harm from business discrimination against potential employees, employees and customers outweighs the harm from being "forced" to tolerate undesirable races, religions etc in one's business. I don't believe that such discrimination will be as rare as claimed. These days it is as likely to be directed at Muslims and gays as blacks, but the tendency to ignorantly, irrationally and/or arbitrarily discriminate has not been sufficiently eliminated yet. For evidence, just look at all the racism and bigotry expressed on this forum and other public fora.

    Also, I am willing to recognize the damage that it would cause to society and vulnerable people, something the conservative-libertarians ignore or downplay. In small towns, isolated and rural areas, just one or two discriminatory businesses could keep a significant portion of the population from getting a job, shopping, getting a place to live etc. without leaving town. Businesses have the ability to oppress people in their daily lives as much or more than government, especially in these days of a handful of mega-corporations, malls and big box retail dominating retail and services. Addressing government discrimination while allowing business discrimination requires tolerating discrimination and the hardship and oppression it will impose on unpopular minorities and society as a whole.
    While I agree with your first paragraph I believe that you misstate the issue in the 2nd paragraph. I am certainly not saying that this is an onerous problem. Quite the opposite, I would believe that any business would do better if they served all of the community and not just a section and almost all businesses would not have a problem complying.

    And I understand Hamiltonian evolution and the needs of people to separate into us and them based on ethnic background. We discriminate for many other reason such as height, weight, speech impediments, and many other reasons that have not yet found their way into laws and protected classes. I am not opposed to laws in some cases in which there are very limited avenues for some goods or services. It seems to me rather silly to go after one photographer or one bakery out of hundreds in a community based on an unwillingness to provide a service.

    As you probably know, a business can get around there anti-discrimination laws. They can form a private club and restrict membership. They can go underground and operate in the shadow economy. I believe that court cases indicate this is not a problem until the club becomes so dominate that it affects everyone. The Supreme Court approved of Boy Scouts and the BSA has now voluntarily changed their policies. It is probably better when groups operate above ground.

    I think that it is probably good for society to have organization that discriminate. An African American businessperson's club can help other African Americans get started. Any minority group would benefit from similar organizations. In Madison, WI, some people, concerned about rapes, formed a transportation service to provide for women at night. Of course, this is illegal and men complained and were denied service. Don't know how it ended but I would hope somehow they were able to continue.
    Last edited by Eric7216; 02-12-14 at 05:03 PM.

  10. #100
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    Re: Is religious freedom actually possible

    I have no problem with private membership groups and religious organizations discriminating because they are not businesses open to the general public. I am also open to allowing discrimination by sole proprietors who do not have place of business open to the public (such as many photographers), because that would have virtually no impact on others.

    The Boy Scouts were established by federal law and receives government funding, which is why they should not be allowed to discriminate unless they are willing to relinquish their government provided status and privileges.

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