View Poll Results: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

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  • Yes

    42 61.76%
  • No

    12 17.65%
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Thread: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights? [W:85]

  1. #391
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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The Constitution begins with a belief in WE THE PEOPLE. That is about as collectivist as you could get in 1878.
    Again, that is not a statement of principle or ideology but of unity. A collective effort is not the same as collectivism.

    It talks in the Preamble about the common defense and the general welfare - both far beyond individualism.

    It talks about establishing justice and insuring domestic tranquility - both very much group concerns.

    The Constitution and indeed America is balance between individualism and the collective nature of society.
    Society is a collective unit--a collection of individuals who join together to establish a system of governance. Again, just because people form a group to achieve some united purpose, that does not mean that group has embraced the principles of collectivism.

  2. #392
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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Again, that is not a statement of principle or ideology but of unity. A collective effort is not the same as collectivism.

    Society is a collective unit--a collection of individuals who join together to establish a system of governance. Again, just because people form a group to achieve some united purpose, that does not mean that group has embraced the principles of collectivism.
    We disagree then.

    I have said that America is an attempt to balance the individual and the society. I stand by that and have cited examples of where the Founders realize that in the Preamble to the Constitution.

    If you want to argue that some of the Founders were probably more rugged individualists and less believers in the collective nature of society - I would probably agree that some were. However, the document they provided allows for both and that is the important point NOT what individuals may have believed.
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  3. #393
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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    There you have it. You can have my waiter and I'll just stick with my ignorance.
    bon appetite

  4. #394
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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    I'll disagree with you here, although I am with you on most of what you are saying. I indeed do have exercisable rights (unless we are differing on the use of the word exercisable) while on your property. My right to life and my right to not be forcibly detained are still intact as are all my personal property rights. I believe you mean to say that one has no exercisable right towards your services and/or goods/property.
    life and liberty are not exercisable rights.......you don't choose to not live today, but live tomorrow, or be enslave today, and have your liberty the next.

    exercise rights.....i choose to own a firearm, pray, protest, use free speech, .....but also not to exercise..... i have the power to not own a firearm, not pray, not protest, not to speak freely.

    when you are on another person's property, they cannot kill you or imprison you, .........but you have no right to bare a weapon, pray, speak freely, protest, or be secure in your person.
    Last edited by Master PO; 02-15-14 at 07:10 PM.

  5. #395
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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We disagree then.

    I have said that America is an attempt to balance the individual and the society. I stand by that and have cited examples of where the Founders realize that in the Preamble to the Constitution.

    If you want to argue that some of the Founders were probably more rugged individualists and less believers in the collective nature of society - I would probably agree that some were. However, the document they provided allows for both and that is the important point NOT what individuals may have believed.

    wrong, the FATHER of the Constitution, states clearly:

    federalist 45--The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected.

    The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.


    the federal government has no authority in the life's liberty and property of the people, so you claim of a balance of individual and society by federal controls is ........wrong!

  6. #396
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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    life and liberty are not exercisable rights.......you don't choose to not live today, but live tomorrow, or be enslave today, and have your liberty the next.
    Well I do have the right to choose not to live, but under most circumstances I only get to make that choice once.

    when you are on another person's property, they cannot kill you or imprison you, .........but you have no right to bare a weapon, pray, speak freely, protest, or be secure in your person.
    Actually I have every right to be secure in my person at all times, save when a warrant is issued or upon entry into a place with written notification.
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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    well i do have the right to choose not to live, but under most circumstances i only get to make that choice once.



    Actually i have every right to be secure in my person at all times, save when a warrant is issued or upon entry into a place with written notification.
    come on to my property and you can be searched by me, but anyone using sound judgement, better be sure the reason they do a search, not just to exercise that power.

    Now if someone would steal from you, property from your .. ie......store, naturally you would call the law.

    But if you on my land, house i can use my power to search you.
    Last edited by Master PO; 02-15-14 at 09:32 PM.

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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Add to all this, these types of laws are the same as the infamous Jim Crow laws, but in the opposite direction. Both types of laws force the decision one way or the other. Under the Jim Crow laws a business man couldn't choose to have a mixed business. One of the biggest misdirection in counterarguments is that if a person is against anti-discrimination laws that they must be for discrimination and Jim Crow laws. Nothing could be further from the truth for a super majority of us.
    Being tolerant of private sector business's right to discriminate is bad enough. In these times, businesses can, and sometimes will, influence, control, coerce, oppress and harm people as much as any government can. Those whose philosophy allows them to consider the harm to unpopular minorities from business discrimination acceptable because they consider their theoretical principal of "freedom" more important, are aiding the cause of bigotry, discrimination and segregation, whether that is their intent or not.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 02-15-14 at 10:07 PM.

  9. #399
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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    come on to my property and you can be searched by me, but anyone using sound judgement, better be sure the reason they do a search, not just to exercise that power.

    Now if someone would steal from you, property from your .. ie......store, naturally you would call the law.

    But if you on my land, house i can use my power to search you.
    You need to provide case law for that. Like I said, if you had a sign in a conspicuous place that said "entry onto this property constitute consent to be physically searched" or to that effect, then you have a right because I voluntarily entered onto your property with the sign in plain sight. My failure to bother to read it would be irrelevant. But to search me or my personal property simply because I am on your land is a violation of my person and a form of assault. Any attempt that you made would be legal grounds for me to defend myself.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Being tolerant of private sector business's right to discriminate is bad enough. In these times, businesses can, and sometimes will, influence, control, coerce and harm people as much as any government can.
    One does not have to tolerate something that is legal. Protest occur all the time to combat an action by an organization that people dislike but is legal. There are protests all the time outside one of our local porn shops. There has been another set of protests against a "My Doc's In" clinic locally due to some issue that people have but that is perfectly legal. Sufficent negative outcomes, including but not limited to protests and refusing to conduct business, are ways to bring pressure to individuals or businesses to stop the undesired practices without violation of their property rights, or freedom of association.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

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