View Poll Results: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

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  • Yes

    42 61.76%
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    12 17.65%
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Thread: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights? [W:85]

  1. #311
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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I know you can continue your deflections all night, it's just that it's nothing of substance.

    Nondiscriminatory laws have acted against property and labor rights of the individual in the past. That alone defeats your statement of absolute protection for all. You simply cannot counter it.

    Thanks for demonstrating that I am right.
    Prove that the 'harm' suffered by business owners from anti-discrimination laws is greater than the harm suffered by blacks in the south before the Civil Rights Act of 1964, or the harm suffered by Jews in the 1930s under Nazi-imposed segregation, or the harm caused to "untouchables" under India's caste system.

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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Im sorry for quoting you, but would you mind actually posting which specific rights you claim to have on your side. Thanks for refusing to do so in advance.
    The right to be judged without prejudice as an individual and to be treated like an equal as long as one behaves appropriately. (waiting for someone to tell us this right doesn't exist because it wasn't mentioned by an American political leader from the 1700s)
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 02-13-14 at 08:08 PM.

  3. #313
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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Prove that the 'harm' suffered by business owners from anti-discrimination laws is greater than the harm suffered by blacks in the south before the Civil Rights Act of 1964, or the harm suffered by Jews in the 1930s under Nazi-imposed segregation, or the harm caused to "untouchables" under India's caste system.
    We no longer have slavery, the Nazi's are not in power, India's caste system is India's problems. Anything else you want to mention that has absolutely no bearing on the present day discussion? Japan and China never got along, atrocities on both sides there. Why not bring that yo as well?

    If you want to say that this perceived notion of "fair" is worth exercising government force against the rights on the individual sometimes, then so be it. But you cannot make the case that nondiscriminatory laws do not occasionally infringe upon the rights of individuals, because it has and will again. You can believe that this sense of fair is worth that force, but the statement I have argued against was the absolute statement that nondiscrimination laws uphold all our rights all the time. It obviously doesn't do so.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #314
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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    The right to be judged without prejudice as an individual and to be treated like an equal as long as one behaves appropriately. (waiting for someone to tell us this right doesn't exist because it wasn't mentioned by an American political leader from the 1700s)
    No, that right doesn't exist because you cannot control the minds of individuals and some people may think certain things and may be less hospitable to certain people on their property or may try to not associate with them or a plethora of other things which happen in any aggregated system with large enough population and wide enough distribution of ideals and intelligence.

    This isn't hard.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, that right doesn't exist because you cannot control the minds of individuals and some people may think certain things and may be less hospitable to certain people on their property or may try to not associate with them or a plethora of other things which happen in any aggregated system with large enough population and wide enough distribution of ideals and intelligence.

    This isn't hard.
    What people think isn't important, it is how they act. Perhaps I should just say "The right to be treated as an equal human being who is judged by his/her behavior."

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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    What people think isn't important, it is how they act. Perhaps I should just say "The right to be treated as an equal human being who is judged by his/her behavior."
    People should be free to do anything they want so long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. Someone thinking badly of another or being a dick just comes out in the statistics. The government must treat everyone as equal human being, but the individual doesn't have to. If they aren't infringing upon the rights of another, then there is no real problem.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    We no longer have slavery, the Nazi's are not in power, India's caste system is India's problems. Anything else you want to mention that has absolutely no bearing on the present day discussion? Japan and China never got along, atrocities on both sides there. Why not bring that yo as well?

    If you want to say that this perceived notion of "fair" is worth exercising government force against the rights on the individual sometimes, then so be it. But you cannot make the case that nondiscriminatory laws do not occasionally infringe upon the rights of individuals, because it has and will again. You can believe that this sense of fair is worth that force, but the statement I have argued against was the absolute statement that nondiscrimination laws uphold all our rights all the time. It obviously doesn't do so.
    Past experiences and the experiences of other places show us what happens when discrimination is allowed. Jim Crow laws existed during my lifetime and the effect from them still impacts life today.

  8. #318
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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Past experiences and the experiences of other places show us what happens when discrimination is allowed. Jim Crow laws existed during my lifetime and the effect from them still impacts life today.
    Particularly when it is established and enforced by government. Government cannot be allowed to discriminate. The individual might, and so long as that discrimination does not infringe upon the rights of others then it's just an outcome of humanity.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    People should be free to do anything they want so long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. Someone thinking badly of another or being a dick just comes out in the statistics. The government must treat everyone as equal human being, but the individual doesn't have to. If they aren't infringing upon the rights of another, then there is no real problem.
    The business owner who doesn't like serving a customer because of their race, religion, gender etc is harmed much less when forced to serve that person than the would-be customer who has to find another place that will serve him/her is harmed. When a person can't get a job or a home because of race, religion, gender etc discrimination they suffer far more than the employer or landlord will suffer from being forced to treat that person as an equal. In addition, society as a whole is harmed by the impact of discrimination based on prejudice and hate.

  10. #320
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    Re: Do you support non-discrimination laws that protect our rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    The business owner who doesn't like serving a customer because of their race, religion, gender etc is harmed much less when forced to serve that person than the would-be customer who has to find another place that will serve him/her is harmed. When a person can't get a job or a home because of race, religion, gender etc discrimination they suffer far more than the employer or landlord will suffer from being forced to treat that person as an equal. In addition, society as a whole is harmed by the impact of discrimination based on prejudice and hate.
    If there is no reasonable alternative, then perhaps the case is stronger. If a refusal of service infringes upon other rights, such as refusing medical care, or housing, then the case can be rather strong indeed. If it's a cake, perhaps less so.

    The point is that exercise of government force will infringe upon the rights of an individual from time to time. As stated before, I was arguing against the absolute statement.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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