Your opinion on Coke's version of America The Beautiful? [W:1014]

Superfly said:

Nice hyperbole. Also, PUTTING EVERYTHING IN CAPS DOESN'T MAKE YOUR POINT ANY STRONGER.

Come on Chris. Don't act like you are worried about them being taken advantage of. :lol: The migrant workers know full well what they face when they come here to work, yet they still risk life and limb to come here and work. That tells me that things are so bad where they are, that they are willing to do whatever needs to be done to be here.

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The purpose of the caps is so that you won't just gloss over points, but I see you did that anyway. If things are bad in someone's country, they need to work to change that and not become criminals.

Grant said:

Politics is perception, as someone once noted, and most of these debates surround perception, the biases contained therein, and never absolute reality. I'm beginning to believe there is no such thing as truth, only limitless confusion everywhere, and whoever can make some sort of generally acceptable and articulate sense out of it, wins. But that may have little or nothing to do with what the truth might be.

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The truth is painful for the politically correct. We cannot, as a country, concentrate on every individual's needs. We have to do what is best for the country as a whole. The idea that we can cater to every foreign person's needs is beyond ridiculous. This is not Candy Land. This is reality, and reality is harsh sometimes.

ecofarm said:

Redskins fans (that don't want to change the name) getting bent about a lack of respect for traditional culture is too funny. Can't pay for this.

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Cool story bro...can you show me which Redskin "fans" are getting bent about a lack of respect for traditional culture?

The only Redskin fan I've seen in the thread at least is myself, and I've said repeatedly that I don't see the commercial as something to get upset about and that I didn't particularly have any hatred or anger or offense to the commercial. So, unless having a rather "meh" reaction to something is "getting bent" to you, I'm unsure who you're speaking of.

My other post in the thread...other than saying I didn't have any huge issue with the commercial and it didn't offend me, but I think it did a poor job at getting the most out of the message...was basically pointing out that it's ridiculous to compare the interactions between the settlers and Native Americans to that of legal immigrants into this country as the two are entirely different situations. One was, for lack of a better term, a invasion and conquering of land and explusion of a society while the other is an attempt to intigrate ones self directly into the society and live under it to some degree. Apparently feeling like a poor analogy is poor is being "bent" about a "lack of respect for traditional culture"...or something....?

Yeah, unless there's magically some group of Redskins fans posting about this that you can point to your post was nothing but a non-sensical little pisser basically borne of nothing but your bitterness over an entirely seperate and entirely unrelated issue.

Great point! A+! You sure showed me with that one liner :roll:

ChrisL said:

If things are bad in someone's country, they need to work to change that and not become criminals.

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Exactly. What is being done in Mexico to change the conditions where people won't have to 'risk life and limb' to escape. Shouldn't we be asking questions of the Mexicans themselves without blaming it on outside sources?

Like many, I've been to Mexico several times and have met some wonderful people but in many cases their situations are next to hopeless. The change, iit seems to me, has to come from within and with pressure from outside agencies r governments. This can be done through NAFTA, for example, where workers rights are mentioned, or aid restrictions, or by putting pressure on the companies who have invested in Mexico. This historical pattern of the subjugation of the Mexican people (and other Latin American countries as well) should be challenged, and it should be done openly. Screw any government that feels it is 'paternalistic' or 'interfering'. Internal changes in Mexico must be made and it would be for everyone's benefit.

rocket88 said:

The point is - People getting offended because there's different languages in a 30 second ad for a soft drink is stupid. It's people looking for something to get offended about - like the Cheerios ad.

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Oh, that was your point? Wow, your picture did a ****ty job of making that point because it had nothing to do with the absurdity of people getting offended by a frivilous commercial. I agree, and have said as much, that the ad isn't really something to get mad over. Doesn't change the fact that comparing what occured between the settlers of this country and Native Americans is in no way related to what's going on in this country with immigration, unless one is suggesting that immigrants to this country are an invasionary force looking to expell the present society.

Zyphlin said:

Oh, that was your point? Wow, your picture did a ****ty job of making that point because it had nothing to do with the absurdity of people getting offended by a frivilous commercial. I agree, and have said as much, that the ad isn't really something to get mad over. Doesn't change the fact that comparing what occured between the settlers of this country and Native Americans is in no way related to what's going on in this country with immigration, unless one is suggesting that immigrants to this country are an invasionary force looking to expell the present society.

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What's crawled up your butt? How many paragraphs can you pump out about something you don't care about?

The picture was an adjunct to everybody getting bent out of shape because this ad encouraged people to not assimilate, and there was some sort of Liberal conspiracy in the halls of Coca-Cola, Inc. People aren't assimilating? Yeah, happened before. White culture did not originate here. The English language did not originate here. For that matter, probably most of the languages in the ad didn't. SFW?

You're coming here to write paragraphs and paragraphs proclaiming that you don't care? Or are you just reflexively jumping on anyone you percieve as "liberal?"

rocket88 said:

People aren't assimilating? Yeah, happened before.

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There's your problem and why I had an issue with your picture.

The "happened before" you're talking about is a situation entirely different than what's being discussed regarding current immigration.

One was an invasion, at times passive at times aggressive but invasion no less, in an effort to expel the old society and secure a wholey new one.

One is immigration, which is an effort to intigrate oneself self into the established society that's already in place and be a part of it rather than expel it.

No **** "assimilation" didn't happen when the Europeans conquered "the new world", there typically isn't in such situations because it's counter productive to the very point. If the Europeans were simply wanting to become part of Native American culture and society they would've been attempting to become a part of the tribe...not trying to co-exist and/or push out the tribes.

It's one thing to think peoples arguments and complaints about assimilation are misplaced. While I may disagree at times, it's a reasonable argument. However, arguing against peoples complaints about assimilation with a comparison to native americans is about as valid as arguing against peoples complaints about the legitimacy of banning gay marriage by pointing out we ban cocaine.

You're coming here to write paragraphs and paragraphs proclaiming that you don't care? Or are you just reflexively jumping on anyone you percieve as "liberal?"

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I'm on a message board called debate politics....typing out messages.....that are debating in style....about politics.

How odd.

And no, I'm not pouncing on "liberals"...I'm pouncing on a poor analogy. Nothing about poor analogies requires them to be liberal or conservative

ChrisL said:

The purpose of the caps is so that you won't just gloss over points, but I see you did that anyway. If things are bad in someone's country, they need to work to change that and not become criminals.

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Well, speaking of glossing over points, how about the fact that I've mentioned several times that not all immigrants are illegal, therefore not criminals? What about them?

Superfly said:

Well, speaking of glossing over points, how about the fact that I've mentioned several times that not all immigrants are illegal, therefore not criminals? What about them?

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What about them SF? If they passed their citizenship tests, they have demonstrated an ability to speak and understand English in written and verbal forms.

ChrisL said:

What about them SF? If they passed their citizenship tests, they have demonstrated an ability to speak and understand English in written and verbal forms.

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As has been mentioned before - in this very thread - that rule is not absolute, and there are exceptions.

ChrisL said:

What about them SF? If they passed their citizenship tests, they have demonstrated an ability to speak and understand English in written and verbal forms.

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wasn't that the naturalization test? Usually there exists a multi-year space between someone immigrating and taking that test

Dr. Chuckles said:

wasn't that the naturalization test? Usually there exists a multi-year space between someone immigrating and taking that test

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All of these types of tests are in English.

Superfly said:

As has been mentioned before - in this very thread - that rule is not absolute, and there are exceptions.

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If a person has a disability or if it is on the basis of refuge status. They are very limited exemptions, and even they have to pass some tests.

Almost ALL legal immigrants can speak at least SOME English, at least enough to get by. The ones who cannot speak English are usually going to be illegal immigrants, who have also not had any kind of medical examinations or vaccinations either. :shock:

ChrisL said:

All of these types of tests are in English.

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Yes, but a person immigrating and getting citizenship are two distinct things.

Dr. Chuckles said:

Yes, but a person immigrating and getting citizenship are two distinct things.

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All immigrants who plan to live here have to pass a citizenship test except for a few exemptions. I'm not sure what you're referring to. Work visas?

notquiteright said:

And I think you are overselling the need for English in the workplace. I haven't heard of any Nigerian cab drivers taking a fare to the wrong place, have heard many stories of English speaking NYC cab drivers taking first time tourists for a tour of NY before their hotel to pad the meter.

The Chinese guy who only understands numbers is your WAITER, not the cook. Sort of spitting into your food as payback for a snotty attitude there is little to fear health code wise. The cook doesn't need to understand english for that matter- what matters is his supervisor can read the health code and convey the information.

My take on you need english to advance is as your job skill set improves to be advance worthy, so too your mastery of our bastardized version of English will improve... eace

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The Chinese guy isn't the waiter. I particularly like American Chinese food; if you watch them cooking your food you will see that everyone who works for the restaurant cooks the food. Unless you were being very specific to PF Chang's or something like that, then maybe you have a point. but they don't use numbers. Numbers are associated with your poorer, better, gut busting Chinese food restaurants.

I might add that because you haven't heard of a Nigerian cab drive taking a fare to the wrong place doesn't mean anything. We are talking about probability. Is it less or more likely that a person who doesn't speak English will err more than a person who does speak English in a majority English speaking country? It is more likely that the Nigerian will err more than an English speaker in NYC. It is ultimately a math problem. And I might add that, padding the fare may be bad but that isn't really a risks. It really is just an assumption of something that will happen to anyone who doesn't know NYC and doesn't know where to go themselves.

ChrisL said:

All immigrants who plan to live here have to pass a citizenship test except for a few exemptions. I'm not sure what you're referring to. Work visas?

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From my understanding, there is no test for a visa or permanent residency. And one can't apply for citizenship until a few years after residency is granted

rocket88 said:

It is a necessity, and I think anybody that doesn't learn English does so at their own peril. They should be free not to, however. Free to make a mind-bogglingly stupid decision.

I really think people are reading waaaaaaaaay too much into this ad. The point of the ad was of course, to sell more Coca-Cola. Is anybody really offended that someone who speaks a different language buys Coke instead of Pepsi? (Unless you work for Pepsi) Immigrant communities tend to use their own language amongst themselves, why is that bad? They always did, the difference being that when all those Poles came over to Buffalo and Chicago, there wasn't TV to sell them stuff.

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I agree. Stupid decision, but people are free to make the choice. I don't mind the ad. This is all really free advertising for Coke.

notquiteright said:

And I think you are overselling the need for English in the workplace. I haven't heard of any Nigerian cab drivers taking a fare to the wrong place,

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I sure have heard more than a few stories of people getting into their cabs in NYC and telling the driver, "JFK" and being dropped off at Newark International Airport.

And there's an immigrant cab driver in Orange County, Ca. who knows a short cut from Newport Beach to LAX via downtown L.A. :lamo

Dr. Chuckles said:

From my understanding, there is no test for a visa or permanent residency. And one can't apply for citizenship until a few years after residency is granted

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I don't know what you're talking about. As far as I was aware, you don't get residency unless you pass a citizenship/naturalization test. Link please?

ChrisL said:

I don't know what you're talking about. As far as I was aware, you don't get residency unless you pass a citizenship/naturalization test. Link please?

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An immigrant must have a legal immigrant visa
to be eligible for legal permanent residency and
U.S. citizenship, but the visa is not enough. To
acquire a “green card,”
an immigrant must first
apply to adjust his status to legal permanent
resident. The Department of Homeland Security
then verifies that there are no medical,
financial, criminal or prior immigration violation
grounds to deny the application, which costs
$1,010. Most people need an attorney to help
them navigate the complex process, incurring
additional costs of seve
ral thousand dollars.
Most legal permanent residents are allowed to
apply for citizenship after five years. To gain
citizenship, they must demonstrate good moral
character and a basic knowledge of English,
U.S. history and government. The citizenship
application costs $675.

http://nysj.org/s/316/images/editor...irmly anchored in the/Immigration Process.pdf

Gathomas88 said:

According to the math, the non-Hispanic portion of the US population is in decline. End of discussion. :roll:

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The non-hispanic portion of the US population is not the topic. But it's very revealing that your concern is focused so intently on white people becoming a minority

Again, the African American population is more or less stagnant. Virtually all population growth is being fueled by Latin immigrants.

They are not "American" on either a cultural or ethnic basis, nor will they be until they assimilate. Assimilating into the greater US culture is precisely what they are failing to do at the present moment.

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They are culturally american and they do assimilate.

My claims actually make logical sense, and are backed by credible sources. Yours are not. :lol:

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Yes, even though correlation doesn't prove causation, when you use correlation to prove causation, it's logical! :lamo

The problem with the legal immigrants, perhaps not entirely their fault, is that the American people were not asked to vote on whether or not Americans wanted immigration from Mexico and Asia in such huge numbers that virtually all aspects of the traditional American culture would be changed forever.

This was such a fundamental change to the United States that the American people should have been asked to consent or not. Instead, the borders were opened wide and any Americans who objected were labeled racists, bigots, xenophobia and other vile names.

It is unprecedented in history for a government to destroy its own culture in this manner. It would be strange if there were not enormous resentment.

Dr. Chuckles said:

An immigrant must have a legal immigrant visa
to be eligible for legal permanent residency and
U.S. citizenship, but the visa is not enough. To
acquire a “green card,”
an immigrant must first
apply to adjust his status to legal permanent
resident. The Department of Homeland Security
then verifies that there are no medical,
financial, criminal or prior immigration violation
grounds to deny the application, which costs
$1,010. Most people need an attorney to help
them navigate the complex process, incurring
additional costs of seve
ral thousand dollars.
Most legal permanent residents are allowed to
apply for citizenship after five years. To gain
citizenship, they must demonstrate good moral
character and a basic knowledge of English,
U.S. history and government. The citizenship
application costs $675.

http://nysj.org/s/316/images/editor...irmly anchored in the/Immigration Process.pdf

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Okay, well this really doesn't go against anything I've stated, since it clearly states that English is a requirement for citizenship, so what's your point?

Ray410 said:

The problem with the legal immigrants, perhaps not entirely their fault, is that the American people were not asked to vote on whether or not Americans wanted immigration from Mexico in such huge numbers that the traditional American culture would be changed forever.

This was such a fundamental change to the United States that the American people should have been asked to consent or not. Instead, the borders were opened wide and any Americans who objected were called racists, bigots, xenophobia and other vile names.

It is unprecedented in history for a government to destroy its own culture in this manner. It would be strange if there were not resentment.

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That's because it is xenophobia. Just because you think that's a bad word doesn't change it. What you're proposing is the same attitude that led to certain countries being limited in the past - back then "we" didn't want all sorts of papists coming in and putting the Pope ahead of the President. It was a popular opinion at various times, and there was even a political party dedicated to that - the "Know-Nothings."

I know that we can't have people running around making accusations (though apparently doing it to Liberals is considered OK), but you basically said something xenophobic and then said it was a vile name. Well, that's like saying "I know everyone's gonna call me an anti-semite and other horrible things, but I hate jews."