View Poll Results: Do You like this version of "America The Beautiful?"

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Thread: Your opinion on Coke's version of America The Beautiful? [W:1014]

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    re: Your opinion on Coke's version of America The Beautiful? [W:1014]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    The point here, is that there are estimated to be somewhere around 500,000 illegal Hispanic immigrants flooding into the United States each year.
    Nope. More like 150,000/yr

    Migration Information Source - Frequently Requested Statistics on Immigrants and Immigration in the United States
    Data from the Pew Hispanic Center show that the annual flow of unauthorized immigrants from Mexico has declined from about 500,000 per year between March 2000 and March 2005, to about 325,000 per year between March 2005 and March 2007, and to about 150,000 per year between March 2007 and March 2009. Between 2008 and 2009, the unauthorized immigrant population from Mexico appears to have declined, although the change is not statistically meaningful. This finding is reinforced by US Border Patrol apprehensions data and Mexican government surveys. However, the change in the unauthorized immigrant population from other regions of Latin America (excluding Mexico) did definitively decline in 2009 from 2.5 to 2.2 million people. The unauthorized immigrant population from other regions of the world beyond Latin America has remained stable between 2.0 and 2.3 million for much of the last decade.
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    re: Your opinion on Coke's version of America The Beautiful? [W:1014]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    He's operating under the delusion that there's one american culture, presumably white.

    I need to watch Here comes Honey Boo Boo more. You know, to brush up on american culture.
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    re: Your opinion on Coke's version of America The Beautiful? [W:1014]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    True. Again, however; you cannot really deny that immigration also plays a major role in that.

    At least a quarter of Hispanic population growth each year is going to be due to immigration for the foreseeable future, and fresh arrivals also have higher birth rates than more native population groups.

    It also looks like illegals might be trending upwards again.

    Number of Illegal Immigrants in U.S. May Be on Rise Again, Estimates Say
    Your link does not support your claim that a quarter of all Hispanic population growth is due to immigration. In fact, the link contradicts your claims

    IOW, you're making up #'s again
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    re: Your opinion on Coke's version of America The Beautiful? [W:1014]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I've been all over asia. However, I also pay attention to demographics, which is why I know that:



    The worries about overpopulation are... implausible at this point. We are currently at "peak child" in the world, China and Japan both have massive demographic problems where they have failed to reproduce their populace in sufficient numbers to take care of older generations. The global population is currently slated to peak in about the mid-2050s, at which point it will begin declining; a problem that will be one of the defining challenges of the middle two halves of the twenty first century (how to handle a surplus of elderly relative to workers, and then how to handle a shrinking populace).
    Yes, I understand that. As economic opportunities have increased for women across the world, and as their rights have increased and they have gained access to birth control, birth rates go down.

    We see this in this country as well:

    • Birth rate by family income in the U.S. 2010 | Statistic

    That is why census demographers assume a declining fertility rate for hispanics going forward. As Hispanics move up the income demographic, it is assumed their birth rates will decline just like they have for whites and asians.

    In the case of China, they had to reduce their population growth as they do not have sufficient arable land to feed a larger population. Japan has one of the highest population densities on earth, there is no way they could have continued with rapid population growth. Economics is not the only consideration at work in the world.

    The movement among modernized nations is almost uniformly towards reducing birthrates, meaning that the populaces that will relatively dominate the future compared to their present position will be those who are least modernized. This is largely the result of social and economic drivers that do not tweak in the opposite direction; the best we can hope for is to continue to break even as a birthrate.
    Outside of a handful of countries that had significant overpopulation issues and thus enacted public policies to reduce birth rates, in the vast majority of countries birth rates have dropped as women had more economic opportunities and greater rights. Other than the economic challenges of reduced population growth, that is hardly a bad thing.

    Now, mind you, we might hit 700 million in a century - who knows. But that will be immigration-driven, not birth rate driven, our birth-rates are already below replacement level.
    I hope we don't get anywhere near that population. I was simply arguing that it is plausible if birth rates were to tick up again.
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    re: Your opinion on Coke's version of America The Beautiful? [W:1014]

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Yes, I understand that. As economic opportunities have increased for women across the world, and as their rights have increased and they have gained access to birth control, birth rates go down.

    We see this in this country as well:

    Birth rate by family income in the U.S. 2010 | Statistic

    That is why census demographers assume a declining fertility rate for hispanics going forward. As Hispanics move up the income demographic, it is assumed their birth rates will decline just like they have for whites and asians.

    In the case of China, they had to reduce their population growth as they do not have sufficient arable land to feed a larger population. Japan has one of the highest population densities on earth, there is no way they could have continued with rapid population growth. Economics is not the only consideration at work in the world.
    Your thrust here is inaccurate - every time Malthusian predictions have come into play, they have been disproven. China, for example, did not suffer hunger from her large population, but rather her massively destructive centralization projects of the Great Leap Forward and the upheavals of the Cultural Revolution. Today China's population is larger and yet better fed because she has liberalized her economy. You could feed literally the entire current populace of the world from a few states in the United States if you had to, resources are available aplenty for billions more people on this earth, especially given our ever-increasing technological acumen at leveraging them to greater and greater ends.

    Japan and China both are facing severe domestic and fiscal problems from their mis-shapen demographics; and the West is not far behind. On top of being brutal and tyrannical, China's population policies have doomed her hopes to reclaim her former position in the region, and will lead inevitably to increased suffering in that nation. Nor is that effect limited to Asia. Overlay a projection of European countries with the lowest fertility rates with a projection of European countries with overburdened budgets and threatened national fiscs and you will discover a direct causal relationship. In Greece, every 100 grandparents is depending on 42 grandkids for support. That is not a math that you can make work in any kind of decent way.

    Outside of a handful of countries that had significant overpopulation issues and thus enacted public policies to reduce birth rates, in the vast majority of countries birth rates have dropped as women had more economic opportunities and greater rights.
    That, and as we have socialized retirement costs, leading to a bit of a tragedy of the commons, where it is in everyone's economic interests to avoid the expense of raising the children whom they will later depend upon for support in their old age.

    Other than the economic challenges of reduced population growth, that is hardly a bad thing.
    ...you do realize we are talking about the end of the social safety net as we know it, along with the weakening of the relative position of western culture? That all those things we hold dear - individual liberty, equality between the sexes, trade, freedom of religion... those things are not naturally self-protecting and will not survive the reduction of the culture that espouses them.

    I hope we don't get anywhere near that population. I was simply arguing that it is plausible if birth rates were to tick up again.
    I hope we do, so long as we relatively keep or increase the share of people who are net productive.

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    re: Your opinion on Coke's version of America The Beautiful? [W:1014]

    I don't see how any of these numbers can be accurate when we're talking about illegals. They are NOT documented, so any numbers are not going to be an accurate reflection.

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    re: Your opinion on Coke's version of America The Beautiful? [W:1014]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sangha
    So you can't prove all the other inane claims you made,
    Nope. Every claim I have made so far is common knowledge.

    U.S. Population Projections: 2005-2050

    The nation’s population will rise to 438 million in 2050, from 296 million in 2005, and fully 82% of the growth during this period will be due to immigrants arriving from 2005 to 2050 and their descendants. (Figure 1)

    Of the 117 million people added to the population during this period due to the effect of new immigration, 67 million will be the immigrants themselves, 47 million will be their children and 3 million will be their grandchildren.
    Prove it wrong.

    so now you're going to make another claim, which BTW is based on the most extreme of their projections.
    Prove it.

    It sounds like you're really bothered by the fact that someone other than white people are going to benefit.

    Nothing bigoted about that.
    Straw man arguments that have nothing to do with my actual arguments. Nothing dishonest about that.

    And has been, and continues to be, strongly influence by Latino culture. Always has, and always will
    Point to that "influence" then.

    In what way have South Carolina, Oregon, Michigan, Tennessee, Kansas, or, Hell, any state not directly bordering on Mexico or formerly owned by Spain been historically "influenced" by Latino culture?

    Go ahead, Sangha. Wow me.

    Then stop doing it and recognize that Latino culture is a part of american culture
    If it comes from another country, it is not a part of "American" culture. It never has been, and never will be.

    Prove that Mexicans have always been in Texas and California, which was a part of Mexico?
    Prove that their cultural influence was in any way remotely equal to or greater than that of the United States' culture which took these regions over.

    Then stop spouting nonsense about how Latinos don't speak English. They do
    And only 15% of them speak it as their primary language.

    NY Times

    15 percent of Latino adults said they were “largely English speakers.”
    Very few Latinos identify themselves as being primarily "American."

    When Labels Don’t Fit: Hispanics and Their Views of Identity

    Half (51%) say that most often they use their family’s country of origin to describe their identity. That includes such terms as “Mexican” or “Cuban” or “Dominican,” for example. Just one-quarter (24%) say they use the terms “Hispanic” or “Latino” to most often to describe their identity. And 21% say they use the term “American” most often.
    And roughly half do not view themselves as falling within the mainstream of the culture shared by most Americans.

    Nearly half (47%) say they are a typical American, while another 47% say they are very different from the typical American. Foreign-born Hispanics are less likely than native-born Hispanics to say they are a typical American—34% versus 66%.
    So what if they're learning English? Problems with assimilation can still be shown to exist.

    That was all I ever argued in the first place.

    No, you've tried to make many points. You can't prove any of them.
    Prove it.

    And you can't even admit that you were wrong when you claimed that the black and Latino birth rates were similar.
    2.1 and 2.4 are similar.

    He's operating under the delusion that there's one american culture
    Why, yes! There is a single American culture under the umbrella of which all others can be said to reside, and it speaks English as its primary language, and it accepts the United States as its primary point of origin.

    Foreign born Mexican and Latin Americans cultures do not.

    presumably white.
    I dare you to find a single instance of my saying anything remotely like that.

    Chinese immigrants back then were not isolated from one another. They lived in the same areas and interacted with each other daily.
    And? They were 5000 miles from home, and surrounded by a culture which vastly outnumbered them.

    By way of contrast, many Latinos' nation of origin in, quite literally "right next door," due to the influence of immigration and population growth, they are rapidly coming to be the majority ethnic groups within many areas where they reside.

    Sure it is.
    It is not.

    Cultural Assimilation

    Cultural assimilation is the process by which a person or a group's language and, or culture come to resemble those of another group.
    If a given people have been living in a certain area for the last hundred years, but still behave more or less exactly the same as before they arrived, they cannot be said to have assimilated.

    Your link does not support your claim that a quarter of all Hispanic population growth is due to immigration. In fact, the link contradicts your claims
    It has nothing to do with that particular subject whatsoever, so it says absolutely nothing to "refute" any claim. Nice red herring.

    This source, however; does deal with the subject in question.

    The Mexican-American Boom

    Overall, the Hispanic population of the United States grew from 35.3 million in 2000 to 50.5 million in 2010, accounting for more than half of the nation’s overall population growth during that decade (Passel, Cohn and Lopez, 2011). Some 58% of this Hispanic population increase came from births rather than the arrival of new immigrants. However, for many non-Mexican-origin Hispanic groups in the U.S., births accounted for less than half of their population growth in the past decade. For example, from 2000 to 2010, births accounted for just 38% of the growth of the Cuban-American population and just 39% of the growth of the population of U.S. Hispanics of Central or South American origin.
    42% of Hispanic population increase between 2000 and 2010 was due to immigration.

    Immigration is not projected to slow.

    U.S. Population Projections: 2005-2050

    Your opinion on Coke's version of America The Beautiful? [W:1014]-2008-population-04-png

    As such, there is no reason whatsoever to assume that immigration will cease to be a major factor in driving Latino population growth rates.

    If you believe otherwise, feel free to prove it.

    You lose, Sangha, like you always do.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 02-07-14 at 05:54 PM.

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    re: Your opinion on Coke's version of America The Beautiful? [W:1014]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I don't see how any of these numbers can be accurate when we're talking about illegals. They are NOT documented, so any numbers are not going to be an accurate reflection.
    I wouldn't doubt that they have probably dropped a little bit since the recession. However, you are absolutely correct in saying that any estimate on their numbers is ultimately going to be unreliable.

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    re: Your opinion on Coke's version of America The Beautiful? [W:1014]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Your thrust here is inaccurate - every time Malthusian predictions have come into play, they have been disproven. China, for example, did not suffer hunger from her large population, but rather her massively destructive centralization projects of the Great Leap Forward and the upheavals of the Cultural Revolution. Today China's population is larger and yet better fed because she has liberalized her economy. You could feed literally the entire current populace of the world from a few states in the United States if you had to, resources are available aplenty for billions more people on this earth, especially given our ever-increasing technological acumen at leveraging them to greater and greater ends.
    We have two adopted daughters from China. Both of them were very malnourished when we got them. If you go to one of the rich coastal cities in China you would have the impression of a nation of plenty. However, most of the population still lives in poverty, and undernourishment is still a problem. Only 11% of China's land is arable. Much of that doesn't have sufficient water. In China the choice was either reduce the birth rate or accept regular widespread famine.

    The population density of Japan is ten times what it is in the United States.


    Japan and China both are facing severe domestic and fiscal problems from their mis-shapen demographics; and the West is not far behind. On top of being brutal and tyrannical, China's population policies have doomed her hopes to reclaim her former position in the region, and will lead inevitably to increased suffering in that nation. Nor is that effect limited to Asia. Overlay a projection of European countries with the lowest fertility rates with a projection of European countries with overburdened budgets and threatened national fiscs and you will discover a direct causal relationship. In Greece, every 100 grandparents is depending on 42 grandkids for support. That is not a math that you can make work in any kind of decent way.



    That, and as we have socialized retirement costs, leading to a bit of a tragedy of the commons, where it is in everyone's economic interests to avoid the expense of raising the children whom they will later depend upon for support in their old age.



    ...you do realize we are talking about the end of the social safety net as we know it, along with the weakening of the relative position of western culture? That all those things we hold dear - individual liberty, equality between the sexes, trade, freedom of religion... those things are not naturally self-protecting and will not survive the reduction of the culture that espouses them.
    Higher population densities also require ever increasing environmental regulation to achieve the same results. Ultimately we must have some kind of a different growth model that does not require an ever increasing population. Especially if we want America the Beautiful to continue to be an honest song.


    I hope we do, so long as we relatively keep or increase the share of people who are net productive.
    Obviously more of the expense of retiring will have to be gradually shifted to retires. You can't have a system that is purely built up a wealth transfer from young to old that works forever.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 02-07-14 at 06:12 PM.
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    re: Your opinion on Coke's version of America The Beautiful? [W:1014]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Nope. Every claim I have made so far is common knowledge.
    Yeah, like the way you proved that Latinos who are born in the US are not "native born americans"

    Or the way you proved that there was no Mexican culture in Texas before the white people got there.

    Or the way you proved that 2.1 birth rate is similar to a 2.4 even though the former is barely above the replacement rate and the latter leads to a 75% increase in population over 50 years.

    Or the way you proved that Latinos are not assimilating.

    Or proved that Latino culture is not a part of american culture


    In what way have South Carolina, Oregon, Michigan, Tennessee, Kansas, or, Hell, any state not directly bordering on Mexico or formerly owned by Spain been historically "influenced" by Latino culture?
    I like the way you put nonsensical conditions on your questions, as if by acknowledging the profound effect they've had on the culture of border states means it's OK if you ignore those effects.

    But then there's Florida, NY and Nevada.

    If it comes from another country, it is not a part of "American" culture. It never has been, and never will be.
    I guess bluegrass, the blues, and jazz are not a part of american culture :

    Neither is Mardi Gras or Christmas.




    And only 15% of them speak it as their primary language.
    You're lying
    Very few Latinos identify themselves as being primarily "American."

    When Labels Don’t Fit: Hispanics and Their Views of Identity



    And roughly half do not view themselves as falling within the mainstream of the culture shared by most Americans.
    You're lying again

    So what if they're learning English? Problems with assimilation can still be shown to exist.
    You said they weren't learning english. Now you're admitting that they are

    I guess it gets hard to keep track of all the lies you've told

    That was all I ever argued in the first place.
    Nonsense. In addition to all the claims you made (see the first lines of my response) you've also claimed that Latino culture is going to become the predominant culture in the US

    2.1 and 2.4 are similar.
    Yes, one leads to about 5% increase in population and the other leads to a 75% increase. That's similar :


    Why, yes! There is a single American culture under the umbrella of which all others can be said to reside, and it speaks English as its primary language, and it accepts the United States as its primary point of origin.
    Wrong again.


    And? They were 5000 miles from home, and surrounded by a culture which vastly outnumbered them.
    And assimilated Latinos vastly outnumber non-assimilated Latinos.

    By way of contrast, many Latinos' nation of origin in, quite literally "right next door," due to the influence of immigration and population growth, they are rapidly coming to be the majority ethnic groups within many areas where they reside.

    It is not.

    Cultural Assimilation

    If a given people have been living in a certain area for the last hundred years, but still behave more or less exactly the same as before they arrived, they cannot be said to have assimilated.
    They don't behave like anything close to the same as they did before.
    It has nothing to do with that particular subject whatsoever, so it says absolutely nothing to "refute" any claim. Nice red herring.

    This source, however; does deal with the subject in question.

    The Mexican-American Boom

    42% of Hispanic population increase between 2000 and 2010 was due to immigration.
    Immigration has slowed dramatically since then.

    Immigration is not projected to slow.
    It already has
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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