Do you support school choice?

justabubba said:

great point. not unlike health insurers doing whatever is possible to only insure healthy people ... the ones they have to spend little money on

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Yep, if the bottom line is profit, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the motive will be how to attract the most desirable "consumers"because it will be at a cheaper cost, with better results. The others will be throw aways for more profit to be made in the future. Profit can't be lost in this game but human life certainly may.

rabbitcaebannog said:

Yep, if the bottom line is profit, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the motive will be how to attract the most desirable "consumers"because it will be at a cheaper cost, with better results. The others will be throw aways for more profit to be made in the future. Profit can't be lost in this game but human life certainly may.

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using the same health industry comparison, those 'dreg' students will be relegated to accept an educational equivalent to emergency room care ... expensive, inadequate, and inappropriate for their actual needs. the beast will have been so starved after paying out all the vouchers, there will be little money available to incur public education expense for those students who are without a private school willing to accept them and their voucher ... because the private schools will not have been built with them in mind as the voucher would not nearly accommodate the cost of educating those with mental, and/or emotional, and/or behavioral, and/or physical handicaps

justabubba said:

using the same health industry comparison, those 'dreg' students will be relegated to accept an educational equivalent to emergency room care ... expensive, inadequate, and inappropriate for their actual needs. the beast will have been so starved after paying out all the vouchers, there will be little money available to incur public education expense for those students who are without a private school willing to accept them and their voucher ... because the private schools will not have been built with them in mind as the voucher would not nearly accommodate the cost of educating those with mental, and/or emotional, and/or behavioral, and/or physical handicaps

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You got it! Those children you mentioned are not profitable. That is not at all what education was meant to be about and yet that is the direction we are headed.

Peter Grimm said:

Under the proposed system, how are you going to stop the bad kids from coming to the nice suburban schools and giving them problems they don't need? That's unfair to the people who live out in the suburbs and didn't ask for those problems.

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It could be set up if he/she has been suspended/poor attendance/bad grades etc. the student simply would not qualify for a voucher. Most charter/religious schools do not tolerate poor behavior and would probably deny the application of a student with that type of history. Not all schools in suburbs are superb either. Many parents would love to have the ability to send their kids to a charter or religious school but just can't afford the tuition and pay taxes for a school system that is letting them down. Public schools are becoming inefficient because of all the bureaucracy. The teachers deal with so much red tape that they often avoid taking action when they should when dealing with unruly children because of the threat of lawsuits. Our public schools are now run by laws/mandates instead of people. And with Common Core any rights the states had in regard to education will be stripped from them. By giving the federal government all this control there eventually will be no differences in private schools from public because all schools will be forced to teach the same curriculum and will have to do the mandatory testing involved. If you have got an extra half hour today, I highly recommend watching a series of videos explaining Common Core and then I would be interested to learn if your lack of support for vouchers change.

He's called Jesus.

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You best start praying hard because what is about to happen in our school systems over most of the country is darn scary.

vesper said:

It could be set up if he/she has been suspended/poor attendance/bad grades etc. the student simply would not qualify for a voucher. Most charter/religious schools do not tolerate poor behavior and would probably deny the application of a student with that type of history. Not all schools in suburbs are superb either. Many parents would love to have the ability to send their kids to a charter or religious school but just can't afford the tuition and pay taxes for a school system that is letting them down. Public schools are becoming inefficient because of all the bureaucracy. The teachers deal with so much red tape that they often avoid taking action when they should when dealing with unruly children because of the threat of lawsuits. Our public schools are now run by laws/mandates instead of people. And with Common Core any rights the states had in regard to education will be stripped from them. By giving the federal government all this control there eventually will be no differences in private schools from public because all schools will be forced to teach the same curriculum and will have to do the mandatory testing involved. If you have got an extra half hour today, I highly recommend watching a series of videos explaining Common Core and then I would be interested to learn if your lack of support for vouchers change.





You best start praying hard because what is about to happen in our school systems over most of the country is darn scary.

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And the administration is pushing to have children go to pre-schools as early as age 2? As Red Riding Hood said to the wolf: "What big teeth you have, Grandmother!" And we all know the reply....

Greetings, Vesper. :2wave:

polgara said:

And the administration is pushing to have children go to pre-schools as early as age 2? As Red Riding Hood said to the wolf: "What big teeth you have, Grandmother!" And we all know the reply....

Greetings, Vesper. :2wave:

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Yeah and of course this pre-school program Obama is talking about will no doubt be part of Common Core as well giving the Federal Government complete control over and deciding what they should be taught. I guess the earlier the government can get hold of our children it will be easier for them to mold them into little subordinate cogs.

rabbitcaebannog said:

No, your premise is incorrect. While, I agree there is money to be made, that does not mean money to be made will improve student outcome. One way money can be made is by streamlining children. Streamlining can take on different forms. The least expensive way to streamline is to a) accept only those who have potential whether through ability or parental support or a combination of the two b) getting rid of those children who lack one or both of the above. What you create is schools with high ability children with active parental support and schools with children who struggle due to a host of issues. We basically do that now but the biggest difference between what is being pushed today and what we had is now more money being funneled away from those who need it most setting them up for failure at the gate. Instead of taking money away from the most vulnerable schools that lack resources that many wealthy schools may not even need, we should be better funding them for resources such as social services within the school. For instance, children coming from a violent/abusive background need mental health services available. If a child is experiencing PTS during the school day, shoving them in the back of a classroom where they won't distract others is not sufficient for anybody's learning experience. Now with that said, what profit making institution wants to take on that sort of clientele? It is easier for a system to streamline them to those super expensive private prisons who just happen to make a profit off the taxpayer's dime. Not really a solution.

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All I am saying is that vouchers can help enable a parent to put the child into a good school. And if enough parents use those vouchers to put the kids into good schools, those good schools will prosper and the poor and failing schools won't. So, if those running the poor and failing schools want to keep their jobs, they will do what they have to do to turn those poor and failing schools into good schools. If they don't, those bad schools close which is exactly what should happen to them.

The American free enterprise system has been pretty reliable to provide people with what they want if the people can afford to get it. And it is the best products and services at an affordable price that inevitably win out and prosper most in the free market. Thus, in a free market, we enjoy better products and a more affordable cost. There is no reason to believe that allowing school choice to create the same kind of competition between schools won't also result in a better product at a more affordable cost.

AlbqOwl said:

All I am saying is that vouchers can help enable a parent to put the child into a good school. And if enough parents use those vouchers to put the kids into good schools, those good schools will prosper and the poor and failing schools won't. So, if those running the poor and failing schools want to keep their jobs, they will do what they have to do to turn those poor and failing schools into good schools. If they don't, those bad schools close which is exactly what should happen to them.

The American free enterprise system has been pretty reliable to provide people with what they want if the people can afford to get it. And it is the best products and services at an affordable price that inevitably win out and prosper most in the free market. Thus, in a free market, we enjoy better products and a more affordable cost. There is no reason to believe that allowing school choice to create the same kind of competition between schools won't also result in a better product at a more affordable cost.

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Truth be told, under the so called free market approach, places that have established lifting the cap and income levels of students to attend private schools with public money have actually increased cost (as much as double if not more in some places) because not only are people paying for children who would attend a public school, but also for students who want to attend a private school setting. Sadly, this expensive experiment hasn't produced better outcomes---just more money. If people are okay with that so be it. As long as they aren't lying to themselves thinking that it has solved any real problems.

Advocates for vouchers often point to cost savings and private school quality to justify the use of tax dollars for private school tuition, but the cost for Indiana taxpayers has risen from $36 million last year to a whopping $81 million this year. Vouchers a distraction from public education needs

Tuition vouchers are estimated to cost $100 million in the first year and $250 million in the second year. By the third year, with an anticipated annual cost of $1 billion or more, the voucher program is expected to further expand its student eligibility; no school district will be immune to the cost of vouchers. School vouchers are too expensive | PennLive.com

The cost to taxpayers for the first year’s 2,000 vouchers is $8.5 million. But by the time this year’s kindergartners are high school seniors, as many as 26,000 students will be getting income-based vouchers worth over $110 million. Those numbers will be even higher if legislators boost the number or worth of the vouchers in coming years. The cost to taxpayers for the first year’s 2,000 vouchers is $8.5 million. But by the time this year’s kindergartners are high school seniors, as many as 26,000 students will be getting income-based vouchers worth over $110 million. Those numbers will be even higher if legislators boost the number or worth of the vouchers in coming years. School voucher programs expand, giving Ohio more programs than any other state | cleveland.com

Student outcome- Overall, the study demonstrates that demographic differences between
students in public and private schools more than account for the relatively high raw scores of
private schools. Indeed, after controlling for these differences, the presumably advantageous
“private school effect” disappears, and even reverses in most cases.
http://ncspe.org/publications_files/OP111.pdf

rabbitcaebannog said:

Truth be told, under the so called free market approach, places that have established lifting the cap and income levels of students to attend private schools with public money have actually increased cost (as much as double if not more in some places) because not only are people paying for children who would attend a public school, but also for students who want to attend a private school setting. Sadly, this expensive experiment hasn't produced better outcomes---just more money. If people are okay with that so be it. As long as they aren't lying to themselves thinking that it has solved any real problems.

Advocates for vouchers often point to cost savings and private school quality to justify the use of tax dollars for private school tuition, but the cost for Indiana taxpayers has risen from $36 million last year to a whopping $81 million this year. Vouchers a distraction from public education needs

Tuition vouchers are estimated to cost $100 million in the first year and $250 million in the second year. By the third year, with an anticipated annual cost of $1 billion or more, the voucher program is expected to further expand its student eligibility; no school district will be immune to the cost of vouchers. School vouchers are too expensive | PennLive.com

The cost to taxpayers for the first year’s 2,000 vouchers is $8.5 million. But by the time this year’s kindergartners are high school seniors, as many as 26,000 students will be getting income-based vouchers worth over $110 million. Those numbers will be even higher if legislators boost the number or worth of the vouchers in coming years. The cost to taxpayers for the first year’s 2,000 vouchers is $8.5 million. But by the time this year’s kindergartners are high school seniors, as many as 26,000 students will be getting income-based vouchers worth over $110 million. Those numbers will be even higher if legislators boost the number or worth of the vouchers in coming years. School voucher programs expand, giving Ohio more programs than any other state | cleveland.com

Student outcome- Overall, the study demonstrates that demographic differences between
students in public and private schools more than account for the relatively high raw scores of
private schools. Indeed, after controlling for these differences, the presumably advantageous
“private school effect” disappears, and even reverses in most cases.
http://ncspe.org/publications_files/OP111.pdf

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I'm a little suspicious of this organization (the NCSPE) as it gives no information on who founded it, who it is affiliated with, and/or where it gets its funding. I suspect it is a tool of the NEA or other such organization who is trying to preserve the status quo in public education any way that it can.

I simply find too many success stories of the voucher programs like this one is Wisconsin:

Whole story here:
WI school vouchers: 'Working miracles on the south side' « Watchdog.org
Excerpt

Voucher schools like Notre Dame receive about half of the $13,000 per student in state aid that Milwaukee’s public schools get. The 6 percent of students who don’t qualify for vouchers pay $1,500 in tuition. The school raises another approximately$1 million privately to help defray the costs.

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And I am seeing these kinds of results reported all over the country.

Charter Schools in our area, for instance, compete with the public schools, parochial schools, and private schools here. The latest results published show that graduation rates in the Parochial schools and private schools are close to 100%. The Charter Schools are producing graduation rates at well into the 90 percentile. The public schools turned in a dismal 73% graduation rate. And contrary to popular theory, it isn't the rich, more advantaged kids going to the charter schools but the population has a majority of lower income and/or minority students.

School choice makes a huge difference. If vouchers can encourage it, I'm pretty sure it will be an economical solution as well as a huge benefit to the kids.

Voltaire X said:

Freedom of religion =/= freedom from education

If the government is going to require schooling, it certainly needs to require for the sciences to be taught properly. As for sex ed, that is necessary for public health reasons. Crappy parents don't always teach their kids those things.

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Are you claiming that it is not taught in private schools?

justabubba said:

i have a problem with my tax dollars being used to fund indoctrination in the form of an education. public dollars should not be used to teach students that evolution is an invalid theory, that the earth is only 6000 years old, that the Bible is the infallible word of G_d. tax money should not be used to underwrite the teachings of fundamentalists, including those within the American taliban, who believe the races - and sexes - should be segregated. let them spew their crap as they have a right to do ... only not using our tax dollars to do so

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You're aware that private schools must meet minimum standards set forth by the state dept of education, right?

mac said:

Are you claiming that it is not taught in private schools?

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Even if they do not, the proof will be in how the kids perform on their SAT's and other college admission requirements. Home schooled kids are scoring significantly better than public schooled kids on such college entry requirements and the parochial and private schools also turn in almost as good results. When we take away the right of the parent to choose how his/her child will be educated and give that over to the state to determine, we are done as a constitutional republic founded on a concept of unalienable rights and individual liberty.

AlbqOwl said:

I'm a little suspicious of this organization (the NCSPE) as it gives no information on who founded it, who it is affiliated with, and/or where it gets its funding. I suspect it is a tool of the NEA or other such organization who is trying to preserve the status quo in public education any way that it can.

I simply find too many success stories of the voucher programs like this one is Wisconsin:

Whole story here:
WI school vouchers: 'Working miracles on the south side' « Watchdog.org
Excerpt


And I am seeing these kinds of results reported all over the country.

Charter Schools in our area, for instance, compete with the public schools, parochial schools, and private schools here. The latest results published show that graduation rates in the Parochial schools and private schools are close to 100%. The Charter Schools are producing graduation rates at well into the 90 percentile. The public schools turned in a dismal 73% graduation rate. And contrary to popular theory, it isn't the rich, more advantaged kids going to the charter schools but the population has a majority of lower income and/or minority students.

School choice makes a huge difference. If vouchers can encourage it, I'm pretty sure it will be an economical solution as well as a huge benefit to the kids.

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The NCSPE is not affiliated with the NEA. They show a wide variety of research results. Rather than looking at that research you give me one example of a school in Milwaukee that is raising the high costs to educate their students through private means. That IS NOT the norm. If it was, the high costs of vouchers for private schools wouldn't be an issue or even be addressed in the states that are using this method. Again, comparing public schools to private or charter which can cherry pick and/or control student population by getting rid of certain students is not a fair comparison anyway.

mac said:

You're aware that private schools must meet minimum standards set forth by the state dept of education, right?

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Not necessarily. Many states that use the voucher program for private schools don't have that accountability.

mac said:

Because the parents care enough to find a better school for their child. The oft cited cause is that its the parents' fault for lack of caring, yes?

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Caring has very little to do with it. Kids who live in the inner city might have parents who care about them but aren't around very often. A single mother working two jobs to make ends meet is not going to be able to give her kid the attention he needs even though she might care about him very much.

Parental guidance, more so than caring, is often what separates well-behaved children who succeed from ill behaved children who fail in school.

Peter Grimm said:

I have no idea what a Poe is, and my views are my own...

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Related to “Poe's Law”, which holds that an extreme but sincere expression of a particular ideology can be indistinguishable from a mocking parody of that same general ideology. In general, a “Poe” is someone who tries to make fun of an ideology that he opposes, by acting out an extreme caricature of that ideology. You seem to be acting out an extreme caricature of the way that liberals like to falsely paint conservatives, leading me to suspect that you may be a liberal that is trying to put forth an unflattering mockery of conservatism.

As much as liberals try to paint conservatism that way, very few genuine conservatives are as bigoted and elitist as you appear to be. To see someone identifying as “Very Conservative” so openly expressing this kind of elitism and bigotry certainly suggests to be a greater likelihood of a Poe than of a genuine conservative.

Peter Grimm said:

I really don't care about political labels or what other conservatives believe. I agree with liberals on plenty of things, but not on this one.

You throw words like "bigot" out there pretty easily, yet I bet you can't back it up with any kind of justification. How have I said anything remotely bigoted?

I'm the farthest thing from a bigot you'll ever find, so I find that to be laughable. You claim to be conservative. Tell me this: if my hard work doesn't enable me to provide for my family any better than the single mom on welfare, what's my incentive to work hard? Luxury cars? Forget that, I work hard to provide for my family, not for shiny things. Take that away and we might as well be communists.

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Underlying all of what is quoted hereafter, is the assumption that children from poor families, living in poor neighborhoods, will only cause trouble, and that you do not want them sharing the same school with your children, and that you do not want your children to associate with them. You think that coming from a poor family, and living in a poor neighborhood, makes those children inferior to your own,and unworthy of the company of your children.

Also, there is the assumption that since you live in a nice neighborhood, and pay high property taxes, that children from poorer families do not deserve the same opportunity for a decent education to which you insist that your own children are entitled. There is no spin that you can put on this, to hide the underlying bigotry and elitism on which it is based.

You even argue that allowing these children from poor neighborhoods to go to school with your children will hurt “property values” in your neighborhood. I seem to remember, from when I was very young, hearing such arguments being made against allowing black people to move into “white” neighborhoods.

Indeed, for these poor and disadvantaged children, a decent education is the one most important key to enabling them to escape the poverty from which they came, and to have a shot at producing a next generation that isn't saddled with those same disadvantages.

rabbitcaebannog said:

The NCSPE is not affiliated with the NEA. They show a wide variety of research results. Rather than looking at that research you give me one example of a school in Milwaukee that is raising the high costs to educate their students through private means. That IS NOT the norm. If it was, the high costs of vouchers for private schools wouldn't be an issue or even be addressed in the states that are using this method. Again, comparing public schools to private or charter which can cherry pick and/or control student population by getting rid of certain students is not a fair comparison anyway.

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No, I am speaking as a parent and former school board member and current school volunteer that knows the 'research' cited in the NCSPE article you posted is not typical for anything I've seen. Yes, I posted an example of one voucher program that is working splendidly--there is nothing wrong with private funding involvement and that should definitely be encouraged--and I also cited the results we are seeing in our own local schools. I did not dismiss your 'evidence' presented, but questioned its source before being willing to buy into it as a reliable source. Perhaps you could point me to a reliable source that would answer the questions I have about it. The article was very typical of the kinds of things I have seen promoted by the NEA. I was not able to determine who the group is affiliated with so I would be interested to know how you know it is not associated with the NEA.

AlbqOwl said:

No, I am speaking as a parent and former school board member and current school volunteer that knows the 'research' cited in the NCSPE article you posted is not typical for anything I've seen. Yes, I posted an example of one voucher program that is working splendidly--there is nothing wrong with private funding involvement and that should definitely be encouraged--and I also cited the results we are seeing in our own local schools. I did not dismiss your 'evidence' presented, but questioned its source before being willing to buy into it as a reliable source. Perhaps you could point me to a reliable source that would answer the questions I have about it. The article was very typical of the kinds of things I have seen promoted by the NEA. I was not able to determine who the group is affiliated with so I would be interested to know how you know it is not associated with the NEA.

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Um, there were several research papers mentioned that were implemented. None showed that voucher programs have better results, but I'll sit and wait for you to produce one to the contrary instead of giving me anecdotal evidence . TIA

Also the NCSPE is not funded or affiliated with the NEA. The research papers were not even the work of the NCSPE. They just mentioned the research that was done and compared them.

NCSPE: Funding

Hey Rabbit. . . . .this is interesting yes? I was doing a bit more research on the NCSPE and look what the NEA linked to its own Policy Brief. So never mind trying to wiggle out of your insistence that there is no relationship beween the two organizations.

An NEA policy brief - National Education Associationwww.nea.org/assets/docs/PB07a_Vouchers_Alternative09.pdf · PDF file
An NEA policy brief ... education programs and practices supported ... of Privatization in Education, 2006, www.[B]ncspe[/B].org/ publications_files/OP111.pdf.

AlbqOwl said:

Hey Rabbit. . . . .this is interesting yes? I was doing a bit more research on the NCSPE and look what the NEA linked to its own Policy Brief. So never mind trying to wiggle out of your insistence that there is no relationship beween the two organizations.

An NEA policy brief - National Education Associationwww.nea.org/assets/docs/PB07a_Vouchers_Alternative09.pdf · PDF file
An NEA policy brief ... education programs and practices supported ... of Privatization in Education, 2006, www.[B]ncspe[/B].org/ publications_files/OP111.pdf.

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Just because the NEA sited them for a study does not mean they are funded or affiliated with that organization. Ridiculous:roll:

mac said:

You're aware that private schools must meet minimum standards set forth by the state dept of education, right?

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not in my state
neither are their any minimum performance standards for home schooled kids

MoSurveyor said:

I'm glad you agree with me that private schools don't provide a better education at a lower cost than public schools.

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No, I do not agree with this. Not when the true cost of the private school honestly includes the taxes that the parents of the private school students are still having to payto support the public schools that they are not using, on top of the tuition that they are paying to the private school.

MoSurveyor said:

Everybody in the community pays taxes for public schools including businesses and people that have never and will never have children. To continue harping that parents have to "pay double" is pure crap. You sound like those idiots who think they get paid double-time-and-a-half for working a holiday. At best it's ignorance, at worst it's pure deception. :roll:

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Not crap at all. The plain, pure truth.

What if government wants to give everyone a Chevrolet automobile,but we all have to pay a tax to cover the cost of this.

How can Ford compete? If I want to buy a Ford, I can, but I don't get the “free” Chevrolet, that I still have to pay for in taxes. I'd be paying for two cars, and only getting one.

A parent with a child in a private school has to pay for two schools, while only getting the benefit of one. It's unfair to the parent, it's unfair to the private school, which doesn't get to compete on a level field with the “free” taxpayer-funded public school, and it's unfair most of all to the child who will most likely wind up in an inferior public school, because the parents can't afford to pay for both schools while only receiving the services of one.

rabbitcaebannog said:

Just because the NEA sited them for a study does not mean they are funded or affiliated with that organization. Ridiculous:roll:

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Sure does support my observation that the link you posted looks an awful lot like the stuff I see the NEA using to fight the voucher programs or anything else that might upset the status quo in education though.

maquiscat said:

Actually why not? This issue of separation of church and state is one of preventing any one religion from being a ruling factor in the running of the country. As long as there is no restrictions on which "religious" school are being attended (or lack of religion) then the principle is not violated. I find your view as one that goes too far in the separation of church and state.

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This seems a good place to point something out.

Before government stuck its nose into education, schools were privately-run businesses, and parents were expected to pay the schools directly for schooling their children.

In a big enough market, there could be several schools to choose from; some affiliated with religious organizations, and perhaps even teaching principles specific to that religion; others secular.

In this sort of market, nobody would reasonably question the parents' right to send their child to the school of their choice, regardless of any religious affiliation, religious teaching, or lack thereof.

By taxing us to pay for schooling, government has taken some of this responsibility away from parents. I do not believe, that in so doing, that there is any reasonable argument to be made that this in any way diminishes the rights of the parents to choose how and where their child will be educated; religious or not.

In my view, it is not a violation of the First Amendment for taxpayer funded vouchers to be used to fund schooling at openly-religious schools. In fact, in my view, it blatantly violates the First Amendment for government to discriminate against religious schools, or against the parents who wish to send their children thereto. That choice still belongs to the parents; and for that matter, so does the tax money that government is taking from them to be used for educating their children. The money belongs to the people, and it is the people, not government, that has the rightful authority to determine how it is best to be used.

AlbqOwl said:

Sure does support my observation that the link you posted looks an awful lot like the stuff I see the NEA using to fight the voucher programs or anything else that might upset the status quo in education though.

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It's not but I'm still waiting for your proof. Also, feel free to dispute any of the research done rather than attacking the source which is pretty common when one doesn't have a leg to stand on.