View Poll Results: Do you support school choice?

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  • Yes

    69 67.65%
  • Yes but with certain exceptions. (Please list those exceptions.)

    16 15.69%
  • No, students should only go to schools in their public school district.

    4 3.92%
  • other

    10 9.80%
  • I do not know

    3 2.94%
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Thread: Do you support school choice?

  1. #631
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Which schools are failing are no more important to identify in the context of this thread topic than it it is necessary to identify which specific children are not being educated.
    Okay, at least you're honest. My question mostly had to do with cause and effect. What causes school failure and will vouches cure it? If you don't really care about that discussion, fair enough. I understand some parents want money toward their child's education to attend a private school of their choosing, even if I don't agree with it.

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post


    Never should you be defining which schools are falling under failing. You define failing as a set of established parameters and then apply those parameters to all schools and see which ones met them and which ones don't. The way you worded the sentence implies that AlbqOwl should be calling specific schools out, with the implied premise that you expect him to only name schools with disadvantaged kids.
    Mostly because what has been deemed as failing are those disadvantaged schools. I've not heard of any wealthy ones being closed down. It's quite obvious why. Hint: it does as much to do with socio economics.

  3. #633
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Okay, at least you're honest. My question mostly had to do with cause and effect. What causes school failure and will vouches cure it? If you don't really care about that discussion, fair enough. I understand some parents want money toward their child's education to attend a private school of their choosing, even if I don't agree with it.
    It isn't that I don't care about that discussion. It just doesn't belong in this one. This one is whether parents should have the choice to place their child where that child will get a better education. It really doesn't matter what schools are failing or why they are failing. What matters in this discussion is the ability of the parent to make the best decision for his/her child and allowing school choice in which the money will follow the child will help many to do that.

    However, it is my belief that most schools will do what they have to do to attract students and get that money. And that cannot help but be a very good thing in most cases. Obviously the schools that are unable to attract students will close. As they should.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  4. #634
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Mostly because what has been deemed as failing are those disadvantaged schools. I've not heard of any wealthy ones being closed down. It's quite obvious why. Hint: it does as much to do with socio economics.
    Hang on now, I've not seen him advocate that any specific school shut down. So in the end you don't know if there are or are not any wealthy school that fall under his criteria of failing. Your lack of hearing of such a school does not mean that such an event has not happened.

    But here is the other question. If you have the chance to take 1, 2, 3, or however many kids out of their disadvantaged situation and move them to a school where they can succeed, then why would you deny them that simply because the others either cannot or will not leave that situation? Are you saying that we should maintain the fewer kids as disadvantaged because we can't remove that disadvantage from all of them?
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Baloney. I gave you a definition of what a failing school is--at your request. If you are interested in applying that definition to specific schools, do your own homework. Which schools are failing are no more important to identify in the context of this thread topic than it it is necessary to identify which specific children are not being educated. What is important is the principle that parents should have the choice to choose the best school available for their children. How about we focus on that.
    I believe the point he is trying to make is that most so-called "failing" schools have poor results because they are under-funded, have difficulty retaining experienced teachers and have a concentration of especially challenging children-low income kids from violent neighborhoods, from families with little history of academic success and/or with parents that do not speak English well. If these kids get scattered to other schools there is no reason to think that they will do better since the other schools are not accustomed to dealing with that type of student.

  6. #636
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    I believe the point he is trying to make is that most so-called "failing" schools have poor results because they are under-funded, have difficulty retaining experienced teachers and have a concentration of especially challenging children-low income kids from violent neighborhoods, from families with little history of academic success and/or with parents that do not speak English well. If these kids get scattered to other schools there is no reason to think that they will do better since the other schools are not accustomed to dealing with that type of student.
    Failing schools are not failing because they are under funded. Some of the worst schools in the country receive the most funding per capita in the country and still they produce miserable results. At the same time a homeschooled kid who receives absolutely no funding can receive an excellent education. If funding was the issue, the USA would be at or near the top of the list in excellence in education. Instead we are way behind most other developed countries and even some developing or so-called third world countries. Throwing more money at a bad system isn't going to make that system better.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Amen.

    It's not funding, it's not class size necessarily, and it's not technology either.

    Raise your hand if you remember the famous Newsweek cover "Why Can't Johnny Read?"

    In 2008 both candidates had very good potential solutions to the education crisis. Then-candidate Obama spoke specifically about how education begins in the home. It does. Little Johnny never did learn to read very well and didn't "model" reading to his own kids.

    Now academia faces a second generation of non-readers, defined here as those who read only what they must and who consider it a suffering. The weakened and sometimes absent critical thinking skills are shocking. And measurable.

    A Lack Of Rigor Leaves Students 'Adrift' In College : NPR

    College Students Lack Critical Thinking Skills, But Who’s To Blame?

    Critical Thinking Is Best Taught Outside the Classroom - Scientific American

  8. #638
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Hang on now, I've not seen him advocate that any specific school shut down. So in the end you don't know if there are or are not any wealthy school that fall under his criteria of failing. Your lack of hearing of such a school does not mean that such an event has not happened.

    But here is the other question. If you have the chance to take 1, 2, 3, or however many kids out of their disadvantaged situation and move them to a school where they can succeed, then why would you deny them that simply because the others either cannot or will not leave that situation? Are you saying that we should maintain the fewer kids as disadvantaged because we can't remove that disadvantage from all of them?
    My point is the real problem in all schools (rich, poor, public, private) is the achievement gap between wealthy and poor. It continues to grow. If we want real solutions for this very real problem, we certainly aren't addressing it by shuffling kids from one school to another. Even wealthy schools that contain poor children are not closing the gap. Those schools have a much lower chance of closing for the simple reason the higher concentration of children that come from relatively median to high incomes will appear fine while schools with high concentrations of poor students can't average those scores to look higher. If we want to address the real issue, perhaps catching these children at a very young age and offering an enriching environment may change things in the future fir tgese kids. Not furthering to stratify the system.

    Of interest-
    In this chapter I examine whether and how the relationship between family socioeconomic characteristics and academic achievement has changed during the last fifty years. In particular, I investigate the extent to which the rising income inequality of the last four decades has been paralleled by a similar increase in the income achievement gradient. As the income gap between high- and low-income families has widened, has the achievement gap between children in high- and low-income families also widened?

    The answer, in brief, is yes. The achievement gap between children from high- and low-income families is roughly 30 to 40 percent larger among children born in 2001 than among those born twenty-five years earlier. In fact, it appears that the income achievement gap has been growing for at least fifty years, though the data are less certain for cohorts of children born before 1970. In this chapter, I describe and discuss these trends in some detail. In addition to the key finding that the income achievement gap appears to have widened substantially, there are a number of other important findings.

    First, the income achievement gap (defined here as the average achievement difference between a child from a family at the 90th percentile of the family income distribution and a child from a family at the 10th percentile) is now nearly twice as large as the black-white achievement gap. Fifty years ago, in contrast, the black-white gap was one and a half to two times as large as the income gap. Second, as Greg Duncan and Katherine Magnuson note in chapter 3 of this volume, the income achievement gap is large when children enter kindergarten and does not appear to grow (or narrow) appreciably as children progress through school. Third, although rising income inequality may play a role in the growing income achievement gap, it does not appear to be the dominant factor. The gap appears to have grown at least partly because of an increase in the association between family income and children’s academic achievement for families above the median income level: a given difference in family incomes now corresponds to a 30 to 60 percent larger difference in achievement than it did for children born in the 1970s. Moreover, evidence from other studies suggests that this may be in part a result of increasing parental investment in children’s cognitive development. Finally, the growing income achievement gap does not appear to be a result of a growing achievement gap between children with highly and less-educated parents. Indeed, the relationship between parental education and children’s achievement has remained relatively stable during the last fifty years, whereas the relationship between income and achievement has grown sharply. Family income is now nearly as strong as parental education in predicting children’s achievement.

    - See more at: The widening academic achievement gap between the rich and the poor: New evidence and possible explanations | Center for Education Policy Analysis

    Also if we are looking for solutions: Closing The 'Word Gap' Between Rich And Poor : NPR

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Failing schools are not failing because they are under funded. Some of the worst schools in the country receive the most funding per capita in the country and still they produce miserable results. At the same time a homeschooled kid who receives absolutely no funding can receive an excellent education. If funding was the issue, the USA would be at or near the top of the list in excellence in education. Instead we are way behind most other developed countries and even some developing or so-called third world countries. Throwing more money at a bad system isn't going to make that system better.
    A home school has better funding than a public school. In a public school one teacher has to teach 20-35 kids. A home school teacher might have just one student, or as many children they have. (probably under 12 kids)

    Most schools in poor communities get less funding than schools in prosperous areas because the main source of funding is property taxes. Bonds are also used for facility repairs and new facilities and buildings, and they are more likely to pass in affluent areas. Yes there is state and federal funding, but that is a small part of a school's overall budget. Another reason for the quality disparity is that teachers with seniority get to opt out of the difficult schools, leaving the least experienced teachers teaching the most difficult students. Comparing the performance of public schools with private schools is not meaningful because public schools have many bureaucratic, procedural and reporting requirements that private schools don't have, they have to provide subsidized lunches, public schools can not turn away a student living in the district, and they have to accommodate kids with learning disabilities, psychological issues, mental and physical disabilities.

    It should be noted that the supporters of vouchers don't seem to know or understand many of these basic facts about how public schools function.

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Someone please provide proof that the "worst schools in the country receive the most funding per capita in the country and still they produce miserable results." I doubt that claim and never saw it documented.

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