View Poll Results: Do you support school choice?

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  • Yes

    69 67.65%
  • Yes but with certain exceptions. (Please list those exceptions.)

    16 15.69%
  • No, students should only go to schools in their public school district.

    4 3.92%
  • other

    10 9.80%
  • I do not know

    3 2.94%
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Thread: Do you support school choice?

  1. #621
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    A school that is not educating children is failing. When a school fails to educate children sufficiently that most can't pass proficiency tests that children in other countries pass easily, that school is failing. When the school is using social promotions to push uneducated kids along for somebody else to worry about, that school is failing. When a school is failing to graduate and give deserved diplomas to a high percentage of students, that school is failing. When a school is staffed by teachers who depend on protected tenure to keep their jobs and resist any evaluation process to determine that they are actually doing their jobs, it is likely that the school will be failing. When a school is not maintaining sufficient discipline, both of student population and staff, to achieve a learning environment, that school is likely to be failing.
    So, basically you're saying that inner city schools, where there are large pools of disadvantage kids, are more likely to be failing? Have those test scores gone up to show better student outcome when moved to another type school? Also, false about the union bashing stuff. If it was a true statement, places like my state would be poorly performing while places like NC, SC, Texas and Geogia would have the highest testing scores in the nation plus be able to compete internationally but they can't and it has nothing to do with unions.

  2. #622
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    So, basically you're saying that inner city schools, where there are large pools of disadvantage kids, are more likely to be failing? Have those test scores gone up to show better student outcome when moved to another type school? Also, false about the union bashing stuff. If it was a true statement, places like my state would be poorly performing while places like NC, SC, Texas and Geogia would have the highest testing scores in the nation plus be able to compete internationally but they can't and it has nothing to do with unions.
    No basically I was describing what constitutes a failing school as you asked me to do. Want a different answer? Ask somebody who will give you the answer you want.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #623
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    No basically I was describing what constitutes a failing school as you asked me to do. Want a different answer? Ask somebody who will give you the answer you want.
    Are you disagreeing that most of these schools are where high numbers of disadvantage are educated?

  4. #624
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Are you disagreeing that most of these schools are where high numbers of disadvantage are educated?
    Nope. But that is irrelevent to the thread topic. The whole purpose of school choice is to allow parents, rich or poor, disadvantaged or privileged, to take their kid out of a failing school and see that he/she is educated. And if the money follows the child instead of being allocated among the schools, a failing school might improve its performace to attract those dollars. Those who do not or cannot should close.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Nope. But that is irrelevent to the thread topic. The whole purpose of school choice is to allow parents, rich or poor, disadvantaged or privileged, to take their kid out of a failing school and see that he/she is educated. And if the money follows the child instead of being allocated among the schools, a failing school might improve its performace to attract those dollars. Those who do not or cannot should close.
    You really can't use the word "failing" without defining which schools fall under this category. That is why I asked you if you felt that these were mostly schools where there are large pools of disadvanted kids. Obviously, you said no so I'm going to ask you to give me some examples. TIA

  6. #626
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Fair's fair. Many, if not most, school buildings heat/cool larger areas and not specific rooms. Therefore, simply having less students does not equate to a savings in heating/cooling as unused areas will still be heated/cooled as the occupied areas are heated/cooled. The same goes for maintenance cost. The whole building still needs to be maintained even if it is unoccupied and unused. There is no doubt that many cost would go down, but other costs will remain the same simply due to their nature.
    Which is why school districts would consolidate schools, shutting down entire unused buildings, and in the future, design smaller, more efficient schools.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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  7. #627
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    You really can't use the word "failing" without defining which schools fall under this category. That is why I asked you if you felt that these were mostly schools where there are large pools of disadvanted kids. Obviously, you said no so I'm going to ask you to give me some examples. TIA
    Baloney. I gave you a definition of what a failing school is--at your request. If you are interested in applying that definition to specific schools, do your own homework. Which schools are failing are no more important to identify in the context of this thread topic than it it is necessary to identify which specific children are not being educated. What is important is the principle that parents should have the choice to choose the best school available for their children. How about we focus on that.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  8. #628
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Truth be told, that is the issue in a nutshell. Ed reform people want to use the 'we can improve outcomes' when in reality, this hasn't been done because there is a reason that not all kids can perform the same on a test. I do believe we should educate all students whether they have good or bad parents and that we need to stop punishing public schools who try to do this on a daily basis. I always believed those working in the most needy schools should be praised. Also, should be paid more. Those are some tough working conditions. I chose not to do it anymore but God bless those that do. I think it's a travesty they are getting scapegoated.
    But you also punish students who could be doing better and getting an education by forcing them into schools that fail them. Note here, that unlike AlbqOwl, I am not automatically assuming that the school in and of it self is failing. There are, as I noted, times of simply the school and the student not meshing. Additionally, if you have a school in an area where there is a large number of students who don't want to try and bully/peer pressure other kids into not trying (Bill Cosby talk on length on this particular issue), then why can't the students who want to try have an escape to a better school for them. School Choice, or lack thereof, isn't the only problem with our schools. Between large country wide, one size fits all, programs like Common Core and other that have proceeded it, and all of the social mandates (social promoting, lack of letter grades, etc. Note not all systems have the same mandates), there is much that can be done to improve our schools. Reader's Digest had a recent article on various types of learning environments that were highly effective. I have an idea on an environment that does not rely on grade levels and would allow for a larger range of socialization than occurs in the standard environment.

    I have repeatedly agreed that teachers for the most part are not the issue. There are only a few bad apples, which sad to say are hard to fire in many systems. New York seems to be the worst.
    City will spend $29 million on salaries, benefits of educators it can
    Judge: NY School Can't Fire Teacher for Heroin Possession
    Disgraced teacher is worth $10M, makes $100,000 a year, does nothing, & refuses to leave | New York Post
    Child Molesting Teacher Can’t Be Fired Thanks to Union | Publius Forum

    Mind you I don not believe that a teacher should be fired on accusation only, as is the case in some stories out there. However, if the teacher admits to the crime/misconduct and/or is convicted, then there should be nothing maintaining them in their position. Sadly though, it is this type of perception that causes teachers in general lots of grief.
    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    You really can't use the word "failing" without defining which schools fall under this category. That is why I asked you if you felt that these were mostly schools where there are large pools of disadvanted kids. Obviously, you said no so I'm going to ask you to give me some examples. TIA
    Never should you be defining which schools are falling under failing. You define failing as a set of established parameters and then apply those parameters to all schools and see which ones met them and which ones don't. The way you worded the sentence implies that AlbqOwl should be calling specific schools out, with the implied premise that you expect him to only name schools with disadvantaged kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Which is why school districts would consolidate schools, shutting down entire unused buildings, and in the future, design smaller, more efficient schools.
    Depending upon the size of the population, designing a larger school would be more efficient. It's not easy to predict what the future holds and thus planners have to try to guess while planning for future expansion if needed. Repurposing parts of buildings no longer being used by the school would help defray costs, but your whole premise is just not that simple.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Depending upon the size of the population, designing a larger school would be more efficient. It's not easy to predict what the future holds and thus planners have to try to guess while planning for future expansion if needed. Repurposing parts of buildings no longer being used by the school would help defray costs, but your whole premise is just not that simple.
    Designing a larger school may be more efficient, definitely more efficient than 6 partially used schools. New schools are being built all the time, while old schools are shut down. This is nothing new.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  10. #630
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Designing a larger school may be more efficient, definitely more efficient than 6 partially used schools. New schools are being built all the time, while old schools are shut down. This is nothing new.
    This is true. Sandy Hook Elementary was recently razed not because the facility was lacking or because the kids were receiving an inadequate education there. But the history of the place was just too painful to cope with. And Maquiscat is correct that sometimes a student just doesn't find community or 'mesh' in one school but will blossom in another. I touched on that as being a justification for school choice in previous posts.

    The best reason for school choice is the concept of individual liberty and recognizing the unalienable right for parents to do the very best they can do for their children. And that could involve getting them out of a school where they are not being adequately educated and into a school where they are being adequately educated. When our kids were home, my husband and I did research the schools in each new town--he was transferred a lot--to be sure we moved into the district with the best schools. We also asked around about teachers so we could utilize ability to choose teachers when that privilege was offered. After they got older, our kids knew which teachers they wanted and would do their damndest to get into those classes. And it was not the 'easy' teachers they wanted. It was the best teachers they wanted.

    People who value liberty do not fear giving people the choice of what is best for themselves and their children.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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