View Poll Results: Do you support school choice?

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  • Yes

    69 67.65%
  • Yes but with certain exceptions. (Please list those exceptions.)

    16 15.69%
  • No, students should only go to schools in their public school district.

    4 3.92%
  • other

    10 9.80%
  • I do not know

    3 2.94%
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Thread: Do you support school choice?

  1. #611
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Who said the schools were failing? Here's what happened under Rahm:

    “Critics accused the board of using false and misleading claims to justify the closures. They say 46,000 students, not 30,000, will be affected. The board claims public schools had lost 145,000 students. In reality, enrollment had declined by 75,000, and 47,000 of those students had gone to charter schools, making the real figure 28,000. Most of Chicago’s student losses occurred 30-40 years ago at the height of deindustrialization. The school district claimed what it said was a $1 billion deficit made closures necessary, but in fact, since students don’t disappear and other schools will require more funding, there will be no cost savings from the closures.Rahm Emanuel’s Reform of the Chicago Public Schools | JONATHAN TURLEY
    If you want no choice to take your child out of a substandard, dangerous school with a ****ty learning environment, go for Rahm's plan. I haven't been discussing costs. I' have been discussing Americans having liberty to do what is in their child's best interest. I don't want the government to order my children and grandchildren to go to a bad school. I want the choice to get the best education available for my child. You do it your way. Let me do it my way.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Looks like someone is in favor of keeping New York's poorer population good and less educated.

    Poor children are improving their station in life!?! We can't be having that!!!.



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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I was one of those type of "bad" kids but my grades never suffered. Being bored and unchallenged did cause behavioral problems but not academic problems. The answer was to transfer me to an AT (Advanced Teaching) class, which was held in another school in the same district. That whole school wasn't AT, just a few classes, one for each grade from 4-7. There were several such schools scattered around the district. Most districts follow the same route today, providing advanced classes for advanced students. Even our inner-city schools have this program and a whole high-school (out of 10? I think) devoted to it.
    I'm glad that you were one of those who maintained your grades despite the lack of challenge. But there are many who won't bother to do the work because of it. We end up leaving these kids behind by forcing them to remain in a school based purely where they happen to live. And this is but one potential problem that can be overcome with school choice.


    For starters, each large subdivision - where those "large number of families" will live - is required to provide space for an elementary school and sometimes to help build one. The middle schools and high schools in my district were over-crowded for over a decade before we got the money to build a new high-school/middle school complex, and we threw in an elementary school, too, because it was cost-effective. That doesn't mean I want kids from outside the district adding to or creating an over-crowding situation.
    This subdivision requirement may be a requirement where you are, but that is not the case throughout the country. That also doesn't account for any possible influx of families with children moving into areas where those who are without or are grown are moving out from. IOW, new families with children but no new physical housing. Overcrowding is another issue that can be solved or at least alleviated by school choice.


    As for your two-students-switch-places scenario, I suspect those will be very few and far between. I'm not saying it won't happen but it's hardly a point for your case.
    How would we really know? I guess we could look at Indiana's stats and see how much it is happening. But when most of the country does not have school choice how would you measure the amount of switching that could go on?


    By definition a "richer" school district gets more money - or you'd better define exactly what you mean by "richer". Our districts vote on the property tax rate for education, so that value will vary from district to district.
    I was responding to your post so I was going by the impression of a school district that has more wealth has more money going to that specific school. However it occurs to me we might need to ensure we're working from common definition to other terms as well. To me there are the school systems, usually county wide, occasional city wide for the larger cities. A district is the area of the school system from which the students of a specific school are assigned. Obviously two students the same high school district may be in different elementary school districts. What I don't understand is that if we're supposed to be providing a equal access to education to all students is how any given school is receiving more money at a county/city, state or federal level than others?

    But I'll say it again, the problems we (all) have with inner-city schools isn't an educational problem or a money problem, it's a social problem. If you can't fix the social problems or at least alleviate the more glaring issues, then children in those areas will never get a good education regardless of what school they attend.
    Social problems are not something for any "Education department" to handle. I am not saying that this isn't an issue or something that doesn't need to be addressed. But it is an issue that won't be solved or exasperated by school choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I'm also curious how you feel about fed R&D for education. Just like any other institution, education needs investigation to make the system better. You can't count on industry/business to do the basic studies needed for advancement.
    Isn't that what our universities, federally funded or not, are doing?

    I still believe the fed should publish an educational standard whether it's a requirement or not.
    I'll agree there, but it should be a bare basic minimum and purely academically related

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    There's a big difference between "special needs and learning disabled students" (in the non-PC vernacular, "handicapped" or "suffering from a specific disease or other physical condition") and students that have (psychological) behavioral problems and/or no home support to speak of. It's the latter problems I see as the major issue in our inner-city schools and it's a social issue that no school can resolve. Pretending that vouchers "will make things all better" for the majority, or even a large minority, of students is BS.
    What is that common saying that I hear from the left all the time? Oh yeah! "If it helps even just one child..." I don't think there is anyone here that is saying that a voucher program will solve all the issues that children have in the current systems. For that matter I don't think that anyone is saying that the voucher program itself is right for all systems. School choice can come in many different forms. But if we can at least lower the drop out rate and increase our education level then we have success. And really we don't need to be setting our goals to all kids attending college either. We just need well educated kids who can go out and support themselves and be part of society. We need blue collar as well as white collar.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Transporting less students costs less money. Heating fewer rooms costs less money. Feeding fewer kids costs less money, etc, etc.
    Fair's fair. Many, if not most, school buildings heat/cool larger areas and not specific rooms. Therefore, simply having less students does not equate to a savings in heating/cooling as unused areas will still be heated/cooled as the occupied areas are heated/cooled. The same goes for maintenance cost. The whole building still needs to be maintained even if it is unoccupied and unused. There is no doubt that many cost would go down, but other costs will remain the same simply due to their nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Um, no not necessarily. Gas is a major costs when transporting children and buses still have to travel the same areas which costs the same in gas but with fewer dollars to cover the costs. You may only have 15 kids vs. 25 going to the same area. Also, heating costs stay the same whether you have 20 kids in a class or 30. Again, you just have less dollars to cover that costs.
    This made me think of something and I understand that would be specific to school systems that are similar to mine. 3 of the 4 high schools are physically close to each other. As far as busing goes, there is no reason that students can't have their choice between the three schools and still be bussed. Same could be done with groups of elementary schools, maybe even with overlapping groups.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  4. #614
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    If you want no choice to take your child out of a substandard, dangerous school with a ****ty learning environment, go for Rahm's plan. I haven't been discussing costs. I' have been discussing Americans having liberty to do what is in their child's best interest. I don't want the government to order my children and grandchildren to go to a bad school. I want the choice to get the best education available for my child. You do it your way. Let me do it my way.
    I was showing you that schools didn't necessarily close because they were failing but because someone decided to close them. That is not choice. That is eliminating public schools just because an official can eliminate them. I believe that is the real motive rather it's called choice or not.

  5. #615
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Looks like someone is in favor of keeping New York's poorer population good and less educated.

    Poor children are improving their station in life!?! We can't be having that!!!.


    Oh, that is a rather sad story. It 's also deceptive. He wants charters to pay toward rent. Public schools have that costs as part of their per pupil spending. Charters are usually much lower cost because they are usually funded by outside private money. NY shares a building with public schools so they don't have to raise costs from the outside. They just allow the public schools to take the whole costs in per pupil spending. Those costs should be split so public schools too can have more money to purchase better things towards learning. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. No freebies off the back of children in public schools!

  6. #616
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Poor performing schools take the lion share of money? Not in my area. Wealthy schools are funded nearly double of poorer schools, but they also perform MUCH better. The big question is why?
    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I think you're mistaken.
    NO not necessarily. Do not mistake what happens in your school system with what happens in hers. One of the issues most school choice advocates have is that fact that the government tries to make one size fit all approach and that's just not reality. So realistically her school system could have the wealthier schools getting more funding while in your school system the poorer schools are getting the more funding.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    There's obviously a need to teach "little a$$holes" whether there's a "market" for it or not. That's the difference, though, isn't it? Teaching kids who don't want to learn is much more expensive than teaching kids that are willing to learn. Vouchers don't solve that problem, they just make it worse.
    Why is it necessarily more expensive to teach "little arseholes"? While I agree that different teaching methods would be require, why are you assuming that those wouldbe more expensive methods?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    We're not giving private schools public money. We're giving people public money for the purpose of education. Where they spend it (as long as it's on education) is their business. And yes, that is constitutional, SCOTUS has already ruled so.
    This should include the ability to home school, as long as the parent can show that the child is indeed receiving an education.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Also when the kids enrolled from first grade through 12th, we could request the teacher we wanted--if we did not specify or the class had filled up, the kid would be assigned by the school--and the kids could request a different school and would be allowed to attend the preferred school if there was room there. The schools had to accept all those in their district who wanted to attend there before accepting out-of-district students.
    Power to you. We never had that ability in my schools, either when I attended or in the various schools my kids attended across the eastern seaboard.

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    I'll let people decide whether they want these mandates to continue or to re-examine many of them. My whole point is public education teachers/schools are being vilified by something they never had any control over. Quite frankly, I'm rather sick of it.
    A lot of us recognize that a majority, even a super majority, of teachers are no where near to blame for issues in school. About the only time we do have issues is when you do find that bad teacher and then the union contract with the school system makes it near impossible to get rid of them. And in all honesty I do hear more about the ever increasing burdens schools are placed under. But there are still those schools that do not perform but are maintained anyway. In the end our education problems are mutli-faceted and the school choice solution is only a solution for some problems.

    The whole reason for this type of arrangement was suppose to be to bring up student outcomes.

    The whole problem with such an effort is that there are students/parents who do not support this effort. Yet we try to push such kids through at the expense of the ones that do support the effort.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  7. #617
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post

    A lot of us recognize that a majority, even a super majority, of teachers are no where near to blame for issues in school. About the only time we do have issues is when you do find that bad teacher and then the union contract with the school system makes it near impossible to get rid of them. And in all honesty I do hear more about the ever increasing burdens schools are placed under. But there are still those schools that do not perform but are maintained anyway. In the end our education problems are mutli-faceted and the school choice solution is only a solution for some problems.

    The whole reason for this type of arrangement was suppose to be to bring up student outcomes.

    The whole problem with such an effort is that there are students/parents who do not support this effort. Yet we try to push such kids through at the expense of the ones that do support the effort.
    Truth be told, that is the issue in a nutshell. Ed reform people want to use the 'we can improve outcomes' when in reality, this hasn't been done because there is a reason that not all kids can perform the same on a test. I do believe we should educate all students whether they have good or bad parents and that we need to stop punishing public schools who try to do this on a daily basis. I always believed those working in the most needy schools should be praised. Also, should be paid more. Those are some tough working conditions. I chose not to do it anymore but God bless those that do. I think it's a travesty they are getting scapegoated.

  8. #618
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    I was showing you that schools didn't necessarily close because they were failing but because someone decided to close them. That is not choice. That is eliminating public schools just because an official can eliminate them. I believe that is the real motive rather it's called choice or not.
    But the topic is school choice. Failing schools that can't get it together to educate the kids should close and school choice is a way to help that happen. Why schools would be closed otherwise is a different subject.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #619
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    But the topic is school choice. Failing schools that can't get it together to educate the kids should close and school choice is a way to help that happen. Why schools would be closed otherwise is a different subject.
    Tell me why is the school failing? Based on what exactly?

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Tell me why is the school failing? Based on what exactly?
    A school that is not educating children is failing. When a school fails to educate children sufficiently that most can't pass proficiency tests that children in other countries pass easily, that school is failing. When the school is using social promotions to push uneducated kids along for somebody else to worry about, that school is failing. When a school is failing to graduate and give deserved diplomas to a high percentage of students, that school is failing. When a school is staffed by teachers who depend on protected tenure to keep their jobs and resist any evaluation process to determine that they are actually doing their jobs, it is likely that the school will be failing. When a school is not maintaining sufficient discipline, both of student population and staff, to achieve a learning environment, that school is likely to be failing.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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