View Poll Results: Do you support school choice?

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  • Yes

    69 67.65%
  • Yes but with certain exceptions. (Please list those exceptions.)

    16 15.69%
  • No, students should only go to schools in their public school district.

    4 3.92%
  • other

    10 9.80%
  • I do not know

    3 2.94%
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Thread: Do you support school choice?

  1. #601
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    I'll let people decide whether they want these mandates to continue or to re-examine many of them. My whole point is public education teachers/schools are being vilified by something they never had any control over. Quite frankly, I'm rather sick of it. It is unfair to pick children based on openings in a school due to funds/staffing/room etc....and not apply it to public schools. That in itself is an uneven playing field and a set up to destroy public schools by slowly depleting their funds. What you are basically going to end up with is a stratified system. Posh schools for the rich, subpar schools for the middle class and crap schools for the throw aways and all of these schools will be publicly funded. The whole reason for this type of arrangement was suppose to be to bring up student outcomes. That hasn't happened yet in the US and it certainly hasn't happened in Chile who put such a voucher program into place years ago based on the theory parent choice will save the educational system and bring up student outcomes for all.
    First, the eventuality you describe as an outcome is already here. I agree that blaming teachers and individual schools is misguided, what should be vilified is the system which created the problem. Namely, the bureaucracy.

    Abstract
    In 1981, Chile introduced nationwide school choice by providing vouchers to any student wishing to
    attend private school. As a result, more than 1000 private schools entered the market, and the private
    enrollment rate increased by 20 percentage points, with greater impacts in larger, more urban, and wealthier
    communities. We use this differential impact to measure the effects of unrestricted choice on educational
    outcomes. Using panel data for about 150 municipalities, we find no evidence that choice improved average
    educational outcomes as measured by test scores, repetition rates, and years of schooling. However, we find
    evidence that the voucher program led to increased sorting, as the best public school students left for the
    private sector. http://www.columbia.edu/~msu2101/Hsi...iola(2006).pdf

    Bingo, increased sorting. That is all is led to....hardly surprising.
    Have you ever been to Argentina? I have, the only civilization that exists is within the large, urban, wealthier areas. Out in the country side, it's straight third world with inhabitants with markedly different expectations. It's not the same as the good ol' USA.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  2. #602
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Um, this is contradictory. First you state that parents that lived in the district got first choice to choose before slots were filled up and outside parents got to choose to get their kids in the door. Then you say that that was giving people choice. Really? How so?
    Because it made more practical sense that way. The local kids who didn't want to travel to a distant school should not be forced to do that just because their school was so good others wanted to go there. For others, it was a first come, first served basis for the remaining openings in that school. Likewise teacher choice was on a first come, first served basis. It is the only way to do it.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #603
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    First, the eventuality you describe as an outcome is already here. I agree that blaming teachers and individual schools is misguided, what should be vilified is the system which created the problem. Namely, the bureaucracy.



    Have you ever been to Argentina? I have, the only civilization that exists is within the large, urban, wealthier areas. Out in the country side, it's straight third world with inhabitants with markedly different expectations. It's not the same as the good ol' USA.
    I can agree when government sides with a corporate agenda the bureaucracy has grown. I suppose that is an entirely different subject. Also, what does Argentina have to do with Chile's voucher system?

  4. #604
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Because it made more practical sense that way. The local kids who didn't want to travel to a distant school should not be forced to do that just because their school was so good others wanted to go there. For others, it was a first come, first served basis for the remaining openings in that school. Likewise teacher choice was on a first come, first served basis. It is the only way to do it.
    Okay, I agree but what does that have to do with what we have today? Are you saying it is worse today. If so, I agree. A lot of kids are being forced to be bused way outside the district because they shut the school down. That caused displacement not a fix.

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Okay, I agree but what does that have to do with what we have today? Are you saying it is worse today. If so, I agree. A lot of kids are being forced to be bused way outside the district because they shut the school down. That caused displacement not a fix.
    If they get a better education elsewhere than they did in the closed school, then the kids benefit. There is no virtue in forcing children to attend a failing school even if it is just across the street from their house. At the same time, what parents would not keep their kids in a good local school where they were safe and getting a good education?

    And yes, the public schools are much worse now than they were when parents and teachers and local school boards ran them. When I was in the public schools, the USA had the best education system in the world. Now it is waaaaaaaay down on the list. We must do better if we love our kids and want to do right by them. And taking education away from federal and national teachers' union control, and restoring school choice would be a very good first step to begin.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  6. #606
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    If they get a better education elsewhere than they did in the closed school, then the kids benefit. There is no virtue in forcing children to attend a failing school even if it is just across the street from their house. At the same time, what parents would not keep their kids in a good local school where they were safe and getting a good education?

    And yes, the public schools are much worse now than they were when parents and teachers and local school boards ran them. When I was in the public schools, the USA had the best education system in the world. Now it is waaaaaaaay down on the list. We must do better if we love our kids and want to do right by them. And taking education away from federal and national teachers' union control, and restoring school choice would be a very good first step to begin.
    Who said the schools were failing? Here's what happened under Rahm:

    “Critics accused the board of using false and misleading claims to justify the closures. They say 46,000 students, not 30,000, will be affected. The board claims public schools had lost 145,000 students. In reality, enrollment had declined by 75,000, and 47,000 of those students had gone to charter schools, making the real figure 28,000. Most of Chicago’s student losses occurred 30-40 years ago at the height of deindustrialization. The school district claimed what it said was a $1 billion deficit made closures necessary, but in fact, since students don’t disappear and other schools will require more funding, there will be no cost savings from the closures.Rahm Emanuel’s Reform of the Chicago Public Schools | JONATHAN TURLEY

  7. #607
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    I can agree when government sides with a corporate agenda the bureaucracy has grown. I suppose that is an entirely different subject. Also, what does Argentina have to do with Chile's voucher system?
    Nothing, I meant to say Chile.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  8. #608
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    I can agree when government sides with a corporate agenda the bureaucracy has grown. I suppose that is an entirely different subject. Also, what does Argentina have to do with Chile's voucher system?
    It's not the corporate agenda that causes govt to screw up. It's the inherent growth of bureaucracy itself.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  9. #609
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Nothing, I meant to say Chile.
    The gap between Chile's richest ten percent and its poorest ten percent is wider than any other country in the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). Hmm, could it be due to the market economy under the Chicago boys in the 70s when they took over the economy? Maybe we should pay attention. We're not too far behind.

  10. #610
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    It's not the corporate agenda that causes govt to screw up. It's the inherent growth of bureaucracy itself.
    Corporate reform in education goes way back in history with their policies that are very much bureaucracy in nature.

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