View Poll Results: Do you support school choice?

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  • Yes

    69 67.65%
  • Yes but with certain exceptions. (Please list those exceptions.)

    16 15.69%
  • No, students should only go to schools in their public school district.

    4 3.92%
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    10 9.80%
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Thread: Do you support school choice?

  1. #591
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    On the one side I will agree that all schools, pubic, private and home, must have their students meet the same requirements for earning a diploma of graduation. However I don't necessarily agree with all of the various state tests. Right now there is too much emphasis on teaching to the test and not in teaching the subject matter. Not to mention the manner in which the test are required to be given. Some students can rattle off every little fact that they've been taught, but put a written test in front of them and it all blanks out. But there is nothing in many of the school systems to address this issue. Everyone wants written tests, be it actual words or little dots. But many non-standard schools can, will and do address such issues.



    Nice way to try to paint with a broad brush. Fail! I said that some of the problem children are not straight behavioral problems but due to a lack of academic challenge. "Some" does not mean "all". Some of those who are not challenged enough simply leave it as just sitting through the year doing nothing, and failing because they're not bothering. You further employ your broad brush by using the "posh private school" term. Our arguments are not about putting kinds in "posh private schools", but into schools where they can actually reach their full academic potential, which may mean some kind of trade/tech school. As noted before, this may mean that child 1 leaves school A for school B, while child 2 leaves school B for school A. It's putting the child in the school that best suits them and allows them to best learn.
    Then let me clarify, that is not what I mean by behavioral problems. I'm talking students whose behavior is so significant they require a FBA. It is law that students whose behavior is so severe that it interfere with the education of others, interventions must be put into place. That sounds excellent in theory but in practice, I have never heard of a school investing money to staff people trained with dealing for extreme emotional issues. The school psychologist does testing not interventions. You truly need someone with that level of training and knowledge to intervene when a crisis happens. Yes, we have a crisis team of teachers that act when a violent or dangerous situation is in progress and we need to remove the student until they gain control only to return them back to the classroom. That does not address the issue of many of these students that need mental health services available if your going to place them in a regular education setting in a public school. The reason most schools don't provide these additional services is because there is no money. Money is extremely tight and in places where you are more likely to find a population of disturbed children due to neglect and/or abuse resources are even tighter. So, here you have a mandate with no additional funds. I want statistics on how many voucher schools accept this population and retain them.

    And, just for the record, I think we need more vocational schools. This notion all kids should be placed on the same educational track is dangerous for many kids that will end up quitting school rather than be placed into an inappropriate environment.

  2. #592
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I disagree. I believe the per pupil cost is being disguised by averaging and it is very likely that there are schools within the Taunton district which surpass the per pupil cost than Weston. Weston has only one High school after-all. Far less averaging.
    That is ridiculous. MA has had this problem of wealthier districts having more money than poorer districts for a long time. They have tried to address it by some formula changes, but it is still a major issue. With that said, even if you took away a portion of their (wealthier schools) funds and poured it into poorer schools, I believe the wealthier districts would still out perform the poorer systems anyway (when it comes to test scores). It isn't completely a money issue when talking specifically test scores. It is only really a money issue when talking specific resources poor schools may need more of due to that specific population and their needs being different. Do you know why wealthier districts score higher on test? They are more likely to have parents who honor education and they have enriching educational environments. Taking these type of students into schools and leaving behind the most challenging cases will not solve the issue of the most challenging students. Basically, public schools are being held accountable for things out of their control, in many cases, while we applaud those wealthy public and/or private ones that are not presented with the same issues. Then we say see this school does better because we can segregate kids. That is a pretty easy thing to do but no remedy.

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    That is ridiculous. MA has had this problem of wealthier districts having more money than poorer districts for a long time. They have tried to address it by some formula changes, but it is still a major issue. With that said, even if you took away a portion of their (wealthier schools) funds and poured it into poorer schools, I believe the wealthier districts would still out perform the poorer systems anyway (when it comes to test scores). It isn't completely a money issue when talking specifically test scores. It is only really a money issue when talking specific resources poor schools may need more of due to that specific population and their needs being different. Do you know why wealthier districts score higher on test? They are more likely to have parents who honor education and they have enriching educational environments. Taking these type of students into schools and leaving behind the most challenging cases will not solve the issue of the most challenging students. Basically, public schools are being held accountable for things out of their control, in many cases, while we applaud those wealthy public and/or private ones that are not presented with the same issues. Then we say see this school does better because we can segregate kids. That is a pretty easy thing to do but no remedy.
    It's not rediculous, it's basic math...and it's rather absurd to suggest that school A spends exactly the same per student as school B. No matter where school A and B are. Now, the "most challenging students" are a pretty small minority of students, while the "challenging" students are a much larger chunk of the demographics. Separating the "challenging" and "average" students from the "most challenging" students makes perfect sense. In fact, in some of the larger cities, it's already done regularly.

    Why is it so terrible to give parents of the "challenging" and "average" students the freedom of choice their richer fellow citizens have enjoyed for centuries? On a wider subject, the only way to end poverty is to educate the poor. You're not going to do that in an underperforming school where the poor students' peers actively encourage full scale membership in permanent poverty.
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  4. #594
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    It's not rediculous, it's basic math...and it's rather absurd to suggest that school A spends exactly the same per student as school B. No matter where school A and B are. Now, the "most challenging students" are a pretty small minority of students, while the "challenging" students are a much larger chunk of the demographics. Separating the "challenging" and "average" students from the "most challenging" students makes perfect sense. In fact, in some of the larger cities, it's already done regularly.

    Why is it so terrible to give parents of the "challenging" and "average" students the freedom of choice their richer fellow citizens have enjoyed for centuries? On a wider subject, the only way to end poverty is to educate the poor. You're not going to do that in an underperforming school where the poor students' peers actively encourage full scale membership in permanent poverty.
    Where did I say school A spends the same amount as school B? You're constructing a strawman.

    Also, a problem in underperforming schools IS condensing high poverty and challenged kids together. The solution isn't leaving the most vulnerable behind with less funds. How we fund our schools is a problem. Giving private schools public money will solve nothing unless there is no quotas, and they must follow the same mandates and standards as public schools. Specifically, they would no longer be "private" but public. I wouldn't have a problem. Private schools that want their own autonomy should be allowed to remain so with private funds and/or parent funds. They can choose whatever standards and students they want because it is not publicly funded. Or, public schools don't have to follow mandates which presents a perplexing problem. I think you know where I'm going with this....

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Where did I say school A spends the same amount as school B? You're constructing a strawman.
    When you said averaging was rediculous. No, strawman...your condescension.

    Also, a problem in underperforming schools IS condensing high poverty and challenged kids together.
    Which is why giving people control over their education dollars allows poor people the opportunity to put their kids in a better place.

    The solution isn't leaving the most vulnerable behind with less funds. How we fund our schools is a problem.
    I disagree, again, going back to the school specialization argument.

    Giving private schools public money will solve nothing unless there is no quotas,
    We're not giving private schools public money. We're giving people public money for the purpose of education. Where they spend it (as long as it's on education) is their business. And yes, that is constitutional, SCOTUS has already ruled so.

    and they must follow the same mandates and standards as public schools.
    Mandates? What sort of mandate? I agree that they must adhere to a minimum standard.

    Specifically, they would no longer be "private" but public. I wouldn't have a problem. Private schools that want their own autonomy should be allowed to remain so with private funds and/or parent funds. They can choose whatever standards and students they want because it is not publicly funded. Or, public schools don't have to follow mandates which presents a perplexing problem. I think you know where I'm going with this....
    Private schools should remain private regardless of source of some of their students tuition. It is the very nature of a privately run institution which makes it more efficient, rather than a bureaucratic institution where the staff is not terribly beholden to the parents.
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Sure, its more expensive in the present system. It's likely to be expensive in a new system, as well. I'd wager, though, that a new specialized private system would be less expensive than a public. If those problem children could be removed from schools, allowing the other schools to focus on the "good" kids.
    The few 'bad kids' in the schools when I was growing up got sufficient chances to straighten up and fly right, and if they would not, they were expelled. The parents were still required by law to see that their kids got an education, so when the public school threw the kid out, it was left to the parents to figure out how to do that. It was no longer a responsibility of the public schools who saw no reason to allow a few unruly kids to keep the rest from learning. Needless to say, those who were expelled were extremely rare as most parents made damn sure their kids knew how to behave in school.

    Also when the kids enrolled from first grade through 12th, we could request the teacher we wanted--if we did not specify or the class had filled up, the kid would be assigned by the school--and the kids could request a different school and would be allowed to attend the preferred school if there was room there. The schools had to accept all those in their district who wanted to attend there before accepting out-of-district students.

    It was a free, easy going, and quite satisfactory environment, but that was in the days before the schools had succumbed to progressivism/statism/political class leftism. People did not fear liberty or giving the people choice to do what was in their best interest. And, to paraphrase Thomas Sowell who has done extensive research on the history of education in this country, we got an education that would allow us to compete with anybody anywhere.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    When you said averaging was rediculous. No, strawman...your condescension.



    Which is why giving people control over their education dollars allows poor people the opportunity to put their kids in a better place.



    I disagree, again, going back to the school specialization argument.



    We're not giving private schools public money. We're giving people public money for the purpose of education. Where they spend it (as long as it's on education) is their business. And yes, that is constitutional, SCOTUS has already ruled so.



    Mandates? What sort of mandate? I agree that they must adhere to a minimum standard.



    Private schools should remain private regardless of source of some of their students tuition. It is the very nature of a privately run institution which makes it more efficient, rather than a bureaucratic institution where the staff is not terribly beholden to the parents.
    What mandates you ask? I thought this link broke down the mandates by decades pretty well: The Ever Increasing Burden on America

    I also like his point: "The contract between our communities and our schools has changed. It’s no longer “Help us teach our children.” It’s “Raise our kids.” No generation of teachers and administrators in history has had to fulfill this mandate. And each year, the pressure grows."

    If private schools want our money they can also enjoy the same mandates, otherwise, people who complain about public education are just complaining about the fact that public schools have mandates to fulfill. It's not the teacher's fault, nor the union, nor even the administration. It is what is required by law. Now, they want to take funds away and give it to schools that do not have the same mandates and brag about how cheap it is and how expensive public education is....obviously they are misinformed of the difference between public and private. Public school perform just as well if not better than any other school who do not have the added burden of a long list of (in many cases) unfunded mandates and, we take anyone through our doors regardless of quotas and staffing needs and/or lack of funds.

  8. #598
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    What mandates you ask? I thought this link broke down the mandates by decades pretty well: The Ever Increasing Burden on America

    I also like his point: "The contract between our communities and our schools has changed. It’s no longer “Help us teach our children.” It’s “Raise our kids.” No generation of teachers and administrators in history has had to fulfill this mandate. And each year, the pressure grows."
    While I don't disagree that schools are being "tasked" with raising children to a greater extent than at any point in our history, but you must realize why. It's a natural outgrowth of statist policies interfering with parenting and discipline as well as encouraging over-reliance on the state. You can't have a statist system then cry when people rely on the state.

    If private schools want our money they can also enjoy the same mandates, otherwise, people who complain about public education are just complaining about the fact that public schools have mandates to fulfill. It's not the teacher's fault, nor the union, nor even the administration. It is what is required by law. Now, they want to take funds away and give it to schools that do not have the same mandates and brag about how cheap it is and how expensive public education is....obviously they are misinformed of the difference between public and private. Public school perform just as well if not better than any other school who do not have the added burden of a long list of (in many cases) unfunded mandates and, we take anyone through our doors regardless of quotas and staffing needs and/or lack of funds.
    I don't think private schools "wanting our money" has anything to do with it. It's about empowering students and their parents with the choices and resources to better provide a better education for those that are limited by income. And by the way, if it is what is required by law, than it is everyone's fault. We make the laws, we can change them.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
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  9. #599
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    While I don't disagree that schools are being "tasked" with raising children to a greater extent than at any point in our history, but you must realize why. It's a natural outgrowth of statist policies interfering with parenting and discipline as well as encouraging over-reliance on the state. You can't have a statist system then cry when people rely on the state.



    I don't think private schools "wanting our money" has anything to do with it. It's about empowering students and their parents with the choices and resources to better provide a better education for those that are limited by income. And by the way, if it is what is required by law, than it is everyone's fault. We make the laws, we can change them.
    I'll let people decide whether they want these mandates to continue or to re-examine many of them. My whole point is public education teachers/schools are being vilified by something they never had any control over. Quite frankly, I'm rather sick of it. It is unfair to pick children based on openings in a school due to funds/staffing/room etc....and not apply it to public schools. That in itself is an uneven playing field and a set up to destroy public schools by slowly depleting their funds. What you are basically going to end up with is a stratified system. Posh schools for the rich, subpar schools for the middle class and crap schools for the throw aways and all of these schools will be publicly funded. The whole reason for this type of arrangement was suppose to be to bring up student outcomes. That hasn't happened yet in the US and it certainly hasn't happened in Chile who put such a voucher program into place years ago based on the theory parent choice will save the educational system and bring up student outcomes for all.

    Abstract
    In 1981, Chile introduced nationwide school choice by providing vouchers to any student wishing to
    attend private school. As a result, more than 1000 private schools entered the market, and the private
    enrollment rate increased by 20 percentage points, with greater impacts in larger, more urban, and wealthier
    communities. We use this differential impact to measure the effects of unrestricted choice on educational
    outcomes. Using panel data for about 150 municipalities, we find no evidence that choice improved average
    educational outcomes as measured by test scores, repetition rates, and years of schooling. However, we find
    evidence that the voucher program led to increased sorting, as the best public school students left for the
    private sector. http://www.columbia.edu/~msu2101/Hsi...iola(2006).pdf

    Bingo, increased sorting. That is all is led to....hardly surprising.

  10. #600
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    The few 'bad kids' in the schools when I was growing up got sufficient chances to straighten up and fly right, and if they would not, they were expelled. The parents were still required by law to see that their kids got an education, so when the public school threw the kid out, it was left to the parents to figure out how to do that. It was no longer a responsibility of the public schools who saw no reason to allow a few unruly kids to keep the rest from learning. Needless to say, those who were expelled were extremely rare as most parents made damn sure their kids knew how to behave in school.

    Also when the kids enrolled from first grade through 12th, we could request the teacher we wanted--if we did not specify or the class had filled up, the kid would be assigned by the school--and the kids could request a different school and would be allowed to attend the preferred school if there was room there. The schools had to accept all those in their district who wanted to attend there before accepting out-of-district students.

    It was a free, easy going, and quite satisfactory environment, but that was in the days before the schools had succumbed to progressivism/statism/political class leftism. People did not fear liberty or giving the people choice to do what was in their best interest. And, to paraphrase Thomas Sowell who has done extensive research on the history of education in this country, we got an education that would allow us to compete with anybody anywhere.
    Um, this is contradictory. First you state that parents that lived in the district got first choice to choose before slots were filled up and outside parents got to choose to get their kids in the door. Then you say that that was giving people choice. Really? How so?

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