View Poll Results: Do you support school choice?

Voters
102. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    69 67.65%
  • Yes but with certain exceptions. (Please list those exceptions.)

    16 15.69%
  • No, students should only go to schools in their public school district.

    4 3.92%
  • other

    10 9.80%
  • I do not know

    3 2.94%
Page 50 of 65 FirstFirst ... 40484950515260 ... LastLast
Results 491 to 500 of 643

Thread: Do you support school choice?

  1. #491
    Sage
    AlbqOwl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    New Mexico
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:54 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    17,572
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    I disagree. Racial and religious discrimination is stupid and ignorant because it is based on prejudices and misinformation, it unfairly denies opportunities to those who will suffer from exclusion, and it harms all participants who are denied the opportunity to get to know and learn to interact with people who are different, an essential life skill in these times.

    It appears my statement "It sounds like you would not be concerned if vouchers result in a return to schools segregated by religious and race" was correct.
    No it wasn't correct. But since you can't seem to distinguish how parents having the right to choose a school for their children is not the same thing as forced segregation and/or any other form of discrimination, we'll just move on here okay.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #492
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Last Seen
    01-17-16 @ 05:09 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,122

    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    No it wasn't correct. But since you can't seem to distinguish how parents having the right to choose a school for their children is not the same thing as forced segregation and/or any other form of discrimination, we'll just move on here okay.
    They are not the same in many ways, but the result is the same: discrimination and segregated schools. It doesn't matter much to the kids locked out of the best funded schools whether it because of the law, their income, the fact that they aren't accessible with affordable transportation, or because a groups of parents don't want kids with their color or religion in their school. One difference is that it is insulting to know that people choose to discriminate against you.

  3. #493
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    04-13-17 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,985

    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    All I know is that the USA is 4th in the world in per capita spending on public education and is waaaaaaaaay down on the list of the effectiveness of that education. And it is usually the most heavily funded public schools that are doing the worst. Washington DC is a prime example. If there isn't room in a private school, that many parents could not afford even with a voucher system, with school choice at least the lower income family could get a kid out of a failing school into a better public school. And again, the people running the failing school don't want to lose their jobs if all their kids start bailing out and leaving them. So that could be a really strong incentive for them to clean up their act, start doing a better job, and keeping the local kids home.

    What good parent would not choose a good local school near home rather than going through the headache of transporting their kids to a distant school, if the kids could get just as good an education in the neighborhood school?

    But the failing school has no incentive to get better if it receives its full funding and the administration and teachers get paid whether they educate the kids or not.

    We need to stop rewarding failing schools with more and more funding, and we need to reward good ones and encourage failing schools to become good ones. A voucher system/school choice is the most reasonable way to accomplish that.
    The only way that's going to happen is if the private schools have the same admittance requirements as the public schools and that isn't going to happen because private schools want control of who comes in the door and who doesn't.

    The "bad" schools are never going to get better unless they exclude the "bad" kids like private schools do --- or until such time as society realizes the "bad kids" are a social problem, not an educational problem. The opinions of people in this thread, including yourself, plainly show we have a loooong way to go before society comes to terms with that simple fact. All you're doing is trying to shove those problem further into the closet instead of addressing them.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 02-06-14 at 06:24 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  4. #494
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    04-13-17 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,985

    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    They go to public schools that are better than what they would be districted to and the voucher pays for it. How you missed that one I cannot begin to guess.
    Your first assumption, that there will be plenty of openings in other districts, is false. Most districts do not have hundreds of openings. Maybe a few dozen - and those only temporary - but not hundreds. Our high schools got quite crowded before we built a new one. We're now close to where we should be with few openings for outside students.

    Your second assumption, that vouchers will pay for schooling in the other districts, is also false. Not all districts in an area have the same tax base so having the money follow the student won't necessarily by sufficient to cover their cost of education in another district.


    How you missed your false and unspoken assumptions I cannot begin to guess.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 02-06-14 at 06:55 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  5. #495
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    04-13-17 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,985

    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Further, why not let the parents decide where they want to place their children rather than the government dictating where the kids will go to school and giving the parents no say in that. The racial makeup of the school makes no difference if the kids are being well educated. Of course no school that accepts government money should be able to limit the population of the school to a specific race, but parents should be making the choice where their kids will go to school and not the government.
    Parents can put their kids in any school that will have them as long as they can afford it. Your system wouldn't change that one bit. It would just allow people to use public funds for religious education, a practice I find unacceptable.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  6. #496
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    04-13-17 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,985

    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    No, the voucher, if equal to the cost per student now paid to the public schools would provide more than the average private school tuition, lessening the need for fundraising.
    Millions of extra students will require billions more in funding, money that is not guaranteed to appear - and current funding isn't guaranteed to last for that matter. The bottom line is you don't know what private school costs are and have no clue what charities will remain in place once the flood gate opens.


    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Besides, a private organization will make administration far more efficient.
    You've shown nothing to that effect. I fact, you've not shown in any way that private schools are more efficient than public schools without some basic change to the rules each must follow. If the rules for private schools are better then lets have public schools follow those same rules. Lets eliminate public school busing for starters, let the parents get their kids to school as best they can just like private schools do. That alone will make a huge dent in the cost of public education. Then we'll let public schools decide who can and can't come in their doors. If we make those two basic changes, which is where private schools get all their cost savings, then public schools would be some of the best schools in the country.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 02-06-14 at 07:26 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  7. #497
    Sage
    MoSurveyor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    04-13-17 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,985

    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Bingo. The federal government should be collecting no taxes for education and should be funding nothing related to public education. It is only by returning control to the local communities, school board, teachers, and parents that we will restore public education to the shining status it once had. Glad to see that you're finally coming around on that.
    Any parent in my district that wants their child's fed money for private school can have all $240 of it. I don't care and neither would anyone else.


    PS
    However, I disagree about the fed using no money for education. Just like many other kinds of R&D the fed needs to do the basic educational R&D and they need to gather and publish unbiased statistics.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 02-06-14 at 07:47 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  8. #498
    Maquis Admiral
    maquiscat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Last Seen
    12-16-17 @ 09:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,010

    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    1. The point is that Christian schools and profiteers are the prime beneficiaries of the voucher scheme and that has always been the intention of those who fund the campaigns to advocate for vouchers. The implementation of the voucher programs may be done properly and without bias, but it will be the Christian schools and for-profit schools that will primarily benefit because they are the ones that are already established and prepared to take on students.
    And yet we see in Indiana where other schools have come up in response to the voucher system that are not Christian. For-profit, I'm not so worried about as long as they gt the job done. After all the government use all kinds of for-profit businesses in pretty much every other area. Yes any fraud and such should be weeded out, but there isn't one system where that is not happening, inducing the current public school system. I guess maybe that you want instant results in an equal number of religious and non-religious schools or something, but no matter what we do the change will take time. Those other school will arise due to market demand and probably faster than you think

    2. Many people in low income areas do not have the time or money to transport their kids longer distances to attend any school, that is why it is important that their local schools are of the highest possible quality. Vouchers will harm that effort by removing money from the public school systems.
    So we would be removing money from "poor" schools that aren't getting enough to begin with? Or maybe the system can be pulling that money from the schools that don't need it as much to either bus or improve the "poor" schools. I would think that a school when threaten with the loss of their money would be looking at ways to keep it. Throwing money at the system certainly isn't helping thing. So maybe it's time to do something different like send the money to where it can do more good and just be sucked down a black hole.


    3. Whether segregation happens "naturally" or accidentally isn't significant. If it is allowed to happen, the students will be harmed by attending segregated schools. Unlike public schools, there is no way for government or individuals (since private schools are allowed to discriminate parents can not do a lawsuit) to address discrimination and segregation by private schools. Fact: Supporting vouchers requires tolerating increased discrimination and segregation.
    If the school accepts the voucher then they are automatically covered under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, and Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. The only cases where I could find where discrimination was allowed by law were in cases of private, sectarian or non, that accepted no state or federal money, such as one in Hawaii that would not accept any white students. Additionally, are you sure that there would be harm if any school were to be naturally segregated? I am not talking about the "natural segregation" such as occurred under Willis in Chicago, but honest to God done purely by the choice of the students/parents? I seem to recall a study that showed that a segregation of boys from girls resulted in higher academic results, so might not there be a similar result along race line? Is there any study that shows, outside of forced segregation, that harm will come to students of a segregated school? I am willing to bet that most issues that came from segregation, aside from freedom of choice issues, were more about proper funding and resources given to the "minority" schools.

    The Bottom line is that vouchers benefit the families that need the least help, and harm the families that need the most help by taking funding from public schools and giving it to private schools, most of which are operated by religious organizations and profiteers.
    And yet it seems that we have both success and failure stories on the various voucher systems that have been enacted. Thus it really would depend upon implementation. I am not going to say that simply because a system is a voucher system that it is automatically a good system. Only that just because the system is a voucher system does not automatically make it a bad system.

    Also, and maybe you've addressed this, but what are your thoughts towards a voucher system that stays purely within the public school system? Please note if there is any difference if the system includes magnet and/or charter schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRED View Post
    whatever bro. i guess it is to be expected of an obvious union lemming. my kid just started K this year so I have yet to go to any of these meetings you refer to but I look forward to getting involved when the time comes. And I do blame the unions for doing their job. And any teacher that shores up and joins a union is just as much to blame. My whole point here is that unions should be abolished and reclaim our education system.
    I am going to partly disagree with you here. I have seen much good come out of local unions. It is the larger national and international unions that ruin the sectors that they "represent". Your example of the child molester teacher was a good one. The union had gotten the NY teacher (at least that is the one case I remember) who was convicted of child sexual molestation to to be retained upon the payroll of the school board. While he was not allowed to teach any more he still got paid. This was because of what was in the contract between the union and the school board. Additionally, many of the unions force you to pay their dues even if you don't, and more importantly don't want to, belong to their union.

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Then don't use government money for funds if you want no strings attached.
    See above.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  9. #499
    Maquis Admiral
    maquiscat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Last Seen
    12-16-17 @ 09:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,010

    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Bingo. The federal government should be collecting no taxes for education and should be funding nothing related to public education. It is only by returning control to the local communities, school board, teachers, and parents that we will restore public education to the shining status it once had. Glad to see that you're finally coming around on that.
    Hang on. Fair's fair and he said nothing about federal money. I will be one of the first to say that the Education Dept of the federal govt needs to go and that most power and decision making needs to be at the local level. That said I do see the need and place for public schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    I disagree. Racial and religious discrimination is stupid and ignorant because it is based on prejudices and misinformation, it unfairly denies opportunities to those who will suffer from exclusion, and it harms all participants who are denied the opportunity to get to know and learn to interact with people who are different, an essential life skill in these times.

    It appears my statement "It sounds like you would not be concerned if vouchers result in a return to schools segregated by religious and race" was correct.
    I will disagree with the "unfairly" qualifier. If a person chooses to not belong somewhere because of the racial composition of the place then they are the ones who are harming themselves and as such they need to suffer the consequences of it. In this day and age, there would be very few schools that would allow segregation, especially along racial lines, but in general as well. Those that do will very quickly find themselves either serving niche markets or obsolete.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    The only way that's going to happen is if the private schools have the same admittance requirements as the public schools and that isn't going to happen because private schools want control of who comes in the door and who doesn't.

    The "bad" schools are never going to get better unless they exclude the "bad" kids like private schools do --- or until such time as society realizes the "bad kids" are a social problem, not an educational problem. The opinions of people in this thread, including yourself, plainly show we have a loooong way to go before society comes to terms with that simple fact. All you're doing is trying to shove those problem further into the closet instead of addressing them.
    Not necessarily. There are studies that show that some of the "bad" kids are not getting enough challenge and stimulation in public school. They act out because they are bored. When put into private, magnet, or charter schools, their performance improves greatly. There is indeed a portion of the school population (speaking as a country in general) that are suffering from an educational problem. Now if you get a kid that has to keep moving from school to school because they are always acting out, then you most likely have a social problem. But it seems that you would deny those with the education problem a change at a good education.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Your first assumption, that there will be plenty of openings in other districts, is false. Most districts do not have hundreds of openings. Maybe a few dozen - and those only temporary - but not hundreds. Our high schools got quite crowded before we built a new one. We're now close to where we should be with few openings for outside students.
    So what happens went a large number of families, each with 1-4 children, move into the school district? Are they turned away once those few dozen temporary openings fill up? You also seem to have a false and unspoken assumption that simple because Student A left School 1 for School 2 means that all students want to go to School 2. It can just as easily be that School 1 is a better fit for Student B, who is leaving School 2.

    Your second assumption, that vouchers will pay for schooling in the other districts, is also false. Not all districts in an area have the same tax base so having the money follow the student won't necessarily by sufficient to cover their cost of education in another district.
    So wait, are you saying that the richer district schools are getting more money? Hmmm...could that possibly be part of the problem?
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  10. #500
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Last Seen
    01-17-16 @ 05:09 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    9,122

    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Millions of extra students will require billions more in funding, money that is not guaranteed to appear - and current funding isn't guaranteed to last for that matter. The bottom line is you don't know what private school costs are and have no clue what charities will remain in place once the flood gate opens.....
    I think it is inevitable that the price of private schools will increase with widespread availability of vouchers because it will increase demand and raise the amount many people will be willing to the pay (voucher value plus what they can afford compared to what they can afford only without vouchers).

Page 50 of 65 FirstFirst ... 40484950515260 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •