View Poll Results: Do you support school choice?

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  • Yes

    69 67.65%
  • Yes but with certain exceptions. (Please list those exceptions.)

    16 15.69%
  • No, students should only go to schools in their public school district.

    4 3.92%
  • other

    10 9.80%
  • I do not know

    3 2.94%
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Thread: Do you support school choice?

  1. #471
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    It sounds like you would not be concerned if vouchers result in a return to schools segregated by religious and race.
    Then you don't read well do you. Because I have never in my life posted anything remotely like that.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Further, why not let the parents decide where they want to place their children rather than the government dictating where the kids will go to school and giving the parents no say in that. The racial makeup of the school makes no difference if the kids are being well educated. Of course no school that accepts government money should be able to limit the population of the school to a specific race, but parents should be making the choice where their kids will go to school and not the government.
    Originally Posted by Hard Truth "It sounds like you would not be concerned if vouchers result in a return to schools segregated by religious and race."

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Then you don't read well do you. Because I have never in my life posted anything remotely like that.
    Vouchers will result in an increase in even more economically, racially and religiously segregated schools than we have today, which is probably among the reasons a John Birch Society leader supports them.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 02-04-14 at 09:42 PM.

  3. #473
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    As I said, all unions have an obligation to represent their members when they face discipline, much like all criminal defendants are represented by a lawyer, possibly a public defender. The unions do not make the decisions regarding hiring, firing and discipline, the school administration makes those decisions with guidance from the local school board. If you do not like how your local administration is dealing with bad teachers you should complain to your local school board or elect a new board. Public schools, like all democratic institutions, only work as well as their constituents make them work. I wonder how many of the people who want to take public school funds and give them to private schools ever attended a school board meeting.
    Well then I guess we can equate teachers unions to that sleazy lawyer who opts to defend the slime of the earth. You're attempt to keep blame away from the unions is laughable. All unions should be thrown out and let teachers be held accountable for their performances. A piece of trash teacher can stay employed solely due to the fact that the unions make it next to impossible to get rid of a teacher. Unions are simply shields for the cry baby worthless individuals who use the system to collect a paycheck they think they are entitled to for simply showing up. It's pretty pathetic when you have only 1 out of every 1000 teachers being removed for job performance. Dude you're a union lemming and you should get that checked out by a doctor.

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRED View Post
    I said crap about teachers dude. I love how you make it seem like I'm attacking teachers. It's adorable.
    Your comment makes no sense.
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Your comment makes no sense.
    your face makes no sense

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    1. I would desegregate schools by changing school district boundaries so that they do not divide along racial/ethnic/income lines. That is what is done when political district boundaries are done properly without gerrymandering. For example, the west side of a city could be combined with the suburbs on the west to create a racially diverse school district without needing long distance busing. I would also end the practice of funding schools with local property taxes and replace it with state-wide funding so that the funding is based on number of students and those student's needs instead of the local community's property values.
    I'm going to need something a little more than your say so on how the lines are made, with evidence that the lines are drawn to segregate races and income levels and not based upon population and distance from school. Between myself and my children, we've been in four separate school system is three different states (MD X2, GA and CT). While indeed that is a small sampling, the radical difference in the area cultures can be noted and in all of those school districts a large range of ethnic, racial and income diversity. This sounds a like like the fear mongering lines that conservatives are frequently accused of.


    2. The Indianapolis Star had an article Sunday on what it described as increasing diversity in Indiana’s school-voucher program. The evidence: Of 301 schools accepting vouchers, eight are now non-religious, two are Jewish and three are Muslim. The rest are Christian.....
    More on the money behind the Indiana school-voucher law | School Matters

    96% of the schools receiving Indiana's vouchers are Christian schools.
    Oh really? 96% of the whole state of Indiana? Let's look a little further into that cited article shall we?

    To be fair, the article’s focus was local, and last year, there was apparently only one voucher school in Marion County that was not a Christian school. Now there are four: an Islamic school, a Hebrew school that admits only Jewish students, a school for high-functioning children with autism and a school for highly gifted students.
    Local focus article. Somehow I doubt that the whole state of Indiana was being looked at. Let's do a little comparison:

    The state of Maryland has 1475 public schools, 42 charter schools and 815 private schools. Last I checked Indiana was bigger than Maryland, so I am guessing that 301 schools accepting vouchers is not really very many and may not be all the ones in the state accepting vouchers. Just all the ones looked at by the article. Let's add to that, that the cited article in the blog you linked to was inaccessible unless I paid for it. So I certainly can't check this guy for accuracy or context manipulation. And just who is stevehinnefeld anyway and why should I believe him over even an actual reporter, yet alone actual researchers?

    Finally look at that last line again. 4 new school open up after the voucher system starts (assuming that I am reading the blog correctly) and they meet specialized needs within the market. Wasn't that pretty much one of the things us proponents said would happen? I wonder how many other schools have opened in the year and a half since that blog was posted.

    Oh yeah here's the other big question. WHY are there so few non-Christian schools accepting vouchers? Is it a pure lack of "supply"? Well the last line in the blog seems to indicate that more non-Christian schools are on the way. No indication of Christian promotion going on by the government here. Was it because most of the non-Christian schools elected not to accept the vouchers? If so, there is no problem here, and certainly no promotion. Is it because of certain criteria that the non-Christian schools didn't meet? Well with that it would all depend upon the criteria. With that there may or may not be. Another question I don't see noted. Are there any Christian schools that are not accepting the vouchers and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    How would they get to these schools outside of their district?
    The same way they would get to the private ones. This really isn't a hard concept. If the parent is willing to take them out of the local school (local meaning the one for where their home is) to go to a different school, then they are already looking at having to transport them. At that point, how much of a difference would it be to arrange that transport to a different pubic school than to a private school?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Vouchers will result in an increase in even more economically, racially and religiously segregated schools than we have today, which is probably among the reasons a John Birch Society leader supports them.
    Forced segregation is wrong and immoral, but if segregation happens naturally because of the choice of all the people, then it is proper and...well right in one sense of the word anyway. For example's sake let's say we have town that has 300 students half white and half black. The students/parents have the ability to choose which school the individual students will attend. 100 black students choose school A, 100 white students choose school B, while the remainder choose school C. School D closes because no one chose it. Now liberals will tell us that schools A and B are wrong because they are segregated. But since no one forced them to go to those schools there is nothing wrong. I grant that this is a simplistic example, but it illustrated the point well. Again this sounds like a fear mongering line without a lot to back it up.
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Originally Posted by Hard Truth "It sounds like you would not be concerned if vouchers result in a return to schools segregated by religious and race."



    Vouchers will result in an increase in even more economically, racially and religiously segregated schools than we have today, which is probably among the reasons a John Birch Society leader supports them.
    If it does it will be the parents choice and most likely a matter of convenience rather than intentional segregation. And the fact that you highlighted that fact and not the line immediately following it that addresse the issue of discrimination makes your post thoroughly intellectually dishonest. So you will understand that I prefer to discuss concepts with people who represent what I say honestly. I won't respond further so long as you use that kind of tactic. But I do wish you well.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRED View Post
    Well then I guess we can equate teachers unions to that sleazy lawyer who opts to defend the slime of the earth. You're attempt to keep blame away from the unions is laughable. All unions should be thrown out and let teachers be held accountable for their performances. A piece of trash teacher can stay employed solely due to the fact that the unions make it next to impossible to get rid of a teacher. Unions are simply shields for the cry baby worthless individuals who use the system to collect a paycheck they think they are entitled to for simply showing up. It's pretty pathetic when you have only 1 out of every 1000 teachers being removed for job performance. Dude you're a union lemming and you should get that checked out by a doctor.
    Even if no lawyer wants to "defend the slime of the earth," a lawyer will be appointed for the "slime" by the courts. Our criminal system is based on the principal that no one is guilty until convicted and everyone deserves and needs professional representation to have a fair trial.

    You are blaming unions for doing their job, which is to represent the interests of their members, instead of the administrators and school board members who are responsible for approving labor contracts, hiring teachers and supervising them. Do you ever go to school board meetings to complain about the quality of their work?

    Why put the blame on the unions-they are not

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    He puts the blame on unions because he's poorly misinformed.

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post



    Local focus article. Somehow I doubt that the whole state of Indiana was being looked at. Let's do a little comparison:

    The state of Maryland has 1475 public schools, 42 charter schools and 815 private schools. Last I checked Indiana was bigger than Maryland, so I am guessing that 301 schools accepting vouchers is not really very many and may not be all the ones in the state accepting vouchers. Just all the ones looked at by the article. Let's add to that, that the cited article in the blog you linked to was inaccessible unless I paid for it. So I certainly can't check this guy for accuracy or context manipulation. And just who is stevehinnefeld anyway and why should I believe him over even an actual reporter, yet alone actual researchers?

    Finally look at that last line again. 4 new school open up after the voucher system starts (assuming that I am reading the blog correctly) and they meet specialized needs within the market. Wasn't that pretty much one of the things us proponents said would happen? I wonder how many other schools have opened in the year and a half since that blog was posted.

    Oh yeah here's the other big question. WHY are there so few non-Christian schools accepting vouchers? Is it a pure lack of "supply"? Well the last line in the blog seems to indicate that more non-Christian schools are on the way. No indication of Christian promotion going on by the government here. Was it because most of the non-Christian schools elected not to accept the vouchers? If so, there is no problem here, and certainly no promotion. Is it because of certain criteria that the non-Christian schools didn't meet? Well with that it would all depend upon the criteria. With that there may or may not be. Another question I don't see noted. Are there any Christian schools that are not accepting the vouchers and why?



    The same way they would get to the private ones. This really isn't a hard concept. If the parent is willing to take them out of the local school (local meaning the one for where their home is) to go to a different school, then they are already looking at having to transport them. At that point, how much of a difference would it be to arrange that transport to a different pubic school than to a private school?



    Forced segregation is wrong and immoral, but if segregation happens naturally because of the choice of all the people, then it is proper and...well right in one sense of the word anyway. For example's sake let's say we have town that has 300 students half white and half black. The students/parents have the ability to choose which school the individual students will attend. 100 black students choose school A, 100 white students choose school B, while the remainder choose school C. School D closes because no one chose it. Now liberals will tell us that schools A and B are wrong because they are segregated. But since no one forced them to go to those schools there is nothing wrong. I grant that this is a simplistic example, but it illustrated the point well. Again this sounds like a fear mongering line without a lot to back it up.
    1. The point is that Christian schools and profiteers are the prime beneficiaries of the voucher scheme and that has always been the intention of those who fund the campaigns to advocate for vouchers. The implementation of the voucher programs may be done properly and without bias, but it will be the Christian schools and for-profit schools that will primarily benefit because they are the ones that are already established and prepared to take on students.

    2. Many people in low income areas do not have the time or money to transport their kids longer distances to attend any school, that is why it is important that their local schools are of the highest possible quality. Vouchers will harm that effort by removing money from the public school systems.

    3. Whether segregation happens "naturally" or accidentally isn't significant. If it is allowed to happen, the students will be harmed by attending segregated schools. Unlike public schools, there is no way for government or individuals (since private schools are allowed to discriminate parents can not do a lawsuit) to address discrimination and segregation by private schools. Fact: Supporting vouchers requires tolerating increased discrimination and segregation.

    The Bottom line is that vouchers benefit the families that need the least help, and harm the families that need the most help by taking funding from public schools and giving it to private schools, most of which are operated by religious organizations and profiteers.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 02-05-14 at 02:16 PM.

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